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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FOURTH
JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR
DUVAL COUNTY, FLORIDA.
CASE NO.: 16-2007-CA-00575-MA
DIVISION: CV-C
NORTH FLORIDA SCHOLARSHIP )
ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida )
Not-For-Profit Corporation, )
Plaintiff, )
vs. )
MISS FLORIDA SCHOLARSHIP PAGEANT, )
INC., a Florida Corporation, )
d/b/a The Miss Florida Pageant; )
JENNIFER HERRINGTON; JACKSONVILLE )
SCHOLARSHIP FOUNDATION, INC., a )
Florida Not-For-Profit Corporation, )
VOYAGER INFO-SYSTEMS, a California )
Business, d/b/a VoyForums.com; and )
GLOBAL GUEST, d/b/a AmazingForums.com, )
a Foreign Business, )
Defendants. )
_______________________________________)
CONTINUATION OF THE DEPOSITION OF:
JENNIFER HERRINGTON
Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff
DATE TAKEN: Wednesday, May 13, 2009
TIME: 1:00 PM - 4:25 PM
PLACE: Verbatim Reporting Services
233 East Bay Street, Suite 916
Jacksonville, Florida 32202
Examination of the witness taken before:
Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and
for the State of Florida at Large.
- - -
VERBATIM REPORTING SERVICES, INC.
916 Blackstone Building
233 East Bay Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32202 (904)355-0198
A P P E A R A N C E S:
KEVIN S. SANDERS, ESQUIRE,
Kevin S. Sanders, P.A.
817 Willow Branch Avenue
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
Attorney for the Plaintiff.
DAVID E. BLOCK, ESQUIRE,
Jackson, Lewis, LLP
Two South Biscayne Boulevard
One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3500
Miami, Florida 33131
Attorneys for the Defendant.
- - -
I N D E X
WITNESS PAGE
JENNIFER HERRINGTON
Direct Examination (continued) by Mr. Sanders. . . . 116
Telephonic Proceedings
before the Honorable L. Haldane Taylor. . . . . 182
Direct Examination (continued) by Mr. Sanders. . . . 188
Direct Examination (continued) by Mr. Sanders. . . . 242
- - -
E X H I B I T S
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 for identification . . . . 131
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2 for identification . . . . 134
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for identification . . . . 144
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4 for identification . . . . 160
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 for identification . . . . 169
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 for identification . . . . 191
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7 for identification . . . . 197
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8 for identification . . . . 201
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 9 for identification . . . . 204
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 10 for identification. . . . 222
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11 for identification. . . . 227
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 12 for identification. . . . 230
- - -
1 JENNIFER HERRINGTON,
2 having been produced and first duly sworn as a witness on
3 behalf of the Plaintiff, then testified as follows:
4 * * *
5 MR. SANDERS: Good afternoon, Ms. Herrington.
6 This is a continuation of your deposition which was
7 originally started on December 9th, 2008.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
9 BY MR. SANDERS:
10 Q Have you had an opportunity to review that
11 deposition?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. Did you review that again before coming to
14 today's deposition?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. When was the last time you reviewed that
17 deposition?
18 A Several weeks ago.
19 Q Other than reviewing the deposition, anything
20 that you've done to further prepare for your deposition
21 today?
22 A No.
23 Q If you recall from the deposition, we started
24 off -- what we started to try to do was take a
25 chronological order of things that you remembered. We
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1 started off on September 16th, 2006, and went through that
2 day, with who you had spoken with, who you had talked with,
3 and the events that occurred.
4 Based on the deposition, at approximately Page
5 104, we started with regards to Monday, September 18, so
6 we'd covered approximately two days on that deposition. I
7 believe you indicate -- or the question was: "Okay. What
8 happened after Janice left after nine p.m. on Monday,
9 September 18th...?"
10 And then I think you went on to testify with
11 regards to checking some e-mails from family members and
12 from possible contestants.
13 Do you recall all that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And then I think you said that you went to bed.
16 Other than checking the e-mails from the
17 contestants and returning e-mails to family members and
18 stuff, did anything else occur on September 18th?
19 A No.
20 Q What would be the next date or day that you
21 remember that something occurred with regards to this
22 pageant or the events involving this lawsuit?
23 A It would have been when I sent my resignation
24 letter to the Miss Florida Board.
25 Q You didn't speak with anybody or do anything with
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1 regards to anything past September 18th?
2 A On that Tuesday morning, I got up, jumped in the
3 shower, got dressed. My dad had been diagnosed with cancer
4 a couple weeks prior to that. I accompanied my dad to his
5 chemo appointments every Tuesday. He had a doctor's
6 appointment that morning. I picked up him and my mother; I
7 went with him to his doctor's appointment and then sat with
8 him in chemo for the rest of the afternoon.
9 Q So, when you're saying "Tuesday," that would have
10 been September 19th, 2006?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. Did you do anything with regards to
13 the pageant on that particular day?
14 A No, I did not, because you cannot accept any
15 phone calls or have anything inside the radiation/chemo
16 room.
17 Q When would have been the next time you either
18 talked with somebody on the phone, received a letter, an
19 e-mail, or sent an e-mail regarding the pageant?
20 A I believe that I spoke with my husband in regards
21 to deciding to go ahead and step down, due to the nature of
22 what we had learned earlier that day, from my dad's
23 doctor's appointment. I told him I felt that was just a
24 time when I needed to be with my family, and so I told him
25 I was going to be sending a resignation letter.
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1 Q And when you say "resignation letter," who,
2 and -- who were you sending it to, and what were you
3 resigning from?
4 A I was resigning -- first of all, I sent it to the
5 Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant Board, and I was resigning
6 as business manager for the Miss Florida Pageant.
7 Q And the reason why you did that was family
8 concerns?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Any other reasons?
11 A Not to the best of my recollection, no.
12 Q What would have next -- well, do you remember the
13 date that you sent in the resignation?
14 A I believe it would have been on Tuesday,
15 September the 19th.
16 Q And that would be 2006?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And you sent that to the board, so you sent
19 multiple e-mails, or did you send it to one e-mail address
20 and address it to the board?
21 A No. I believe I sent it to Mary Sullivan,
22 Richard Walker, Rob Loy, Keith Williams, Kitty Potapow, and
23 possibly Ray McLeod.
24 Q Now, why just those individuals?
25 A I felt like they were the executive board and
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1 that they needed to be the ones that knew of my
2 resignation. If Mary chose to tell the rest of the board,
3 you know, she could do that.
4 Q So what's the difference between the executive
5 board and the rest of the board, to your knowledge?
6 A I believe that the executive board probably
7 consists of Mary, who is the CEO/executive
8 director/president of the Miss Florida Pageant. I know
9 that Richard is vice president. I believe Rob might also
10 be a vice president. Keith, I know, is secretary. Kitty
11 Potapow, I believe, at that time, was on the executive
12 board, but I don't know that her position was. And Ray
13 McLeod I would have sent it to because he does some legal
14 counsel for the Miss Florida Pageant.
15 Q So what would be the other board, then?
16 A That would be the remainder of the board, which
17 I'm assuming would have been the field directors; I guess
18 the person that's probably in charge of the Sunshine
19 Princess program, which I believe, at that time, was Martha
20 DeWitt. I would consider them to be the remainder of the
21 board.
22 Q Now, when you worked as business manager, who did
23 you report to?
24 A Mary Sullivan.
25 Q Did you have to report to any other --
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1 A No.
2 Q -- persons?
3 A I didn't report to anyone unless Miss Florida was
4 going to be in their general vicinity, and she needed a
5 chaperon, then I would contact, perhaps -- if she was going
6 to Tampa, I would, perhaps, contact Rob Loy, because he
7 resided in Tampa, and say, "Miss Florida is coming down for
8 an appearance; could you possibly accompany her on this
9 appearance?"
10 Q But, other than contacting -- you strictly dealt
11 back and forth with Mary with regards to that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q No other board members? You didn't have to
14 report to Keith or Rob or Kitty or --
15 A No.
16 Q -- Richard?
17 A No. The contracts for someone to schedule Miss
18 Florida for an appearance, once I get them from whoever
19 schedules her, they are sent to Mary, along with a check,
20 if it happens to be a paid appearance.
21 Q So all of those contracts were sent to Mary, not
22 to the board?
23 A Yes; they were sent to Mary.
24 Q To your knowledge, what was Mary's
25 responsibility, and what was the board's responsibility?
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1 A I don't understand the question.
2 Q Well, as far as the Miss Florida Organization was
3 considered, what was Mary's responsibility to the
4 organization? What power or authority do you believe that
5 she had, and then what was the board that I think that you
6 mentioned, which you put Mary in, Rob, Keith, Kitty and
7 Richard; and then what was the other responsibility of the
8 other board members?
9 I know that's sort of a compound question; that's
10 where I'm going, so let me just ask it one at a time:
11 Based on that setup, what do you believe Mary's job
12 responsibility, authority, power was when you were the
13 business manager?
14 MR. BLOCK: Form and foundation.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, as being the executive
16 director and president of Miss Florida, I believe that
17 she probably makes a lot of final decisions on things.
18 I'm sure she probably handles all of the contractual
19 needs of the Miss Florida Pageant. I know that she,
20 herself, also helps with the booking of appearances
21 for Miss Florida. She attends all of the MAO meetings
22 that have to be done, and acts as the representative
23 for the State of Florida.
24 BY MR. SANDERS:
25 Q Maybe it might be simpler, I guess, to maybe just
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1 break it down a little bit.
2 What, if anything, was Rob Loy's responsibility?
3 MR. BLOCK: Again, foundation.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly what his job
5 title does. To be perfectly honest with you, I don't
6 know.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q Do you know what Keith Williams' title is?
9 A Keith is the secretary.
10 Q As secretary, what, if any, authority or powers
11 did he have?
12 A I'm sure that he would --
13 MR. BLOCK: Same objection, to --
14 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that he would take minutes
15 or notes at board meetings. I also do believe that he
16 handles the tickets for the Miss Florida Pageant.
17 BY MR. SANDERS:
18 Q And Richard Walker, I think you said that he
19 might be a vice president.
20 A Yes. So I guess that would be he would pretty
21 much be next in charge, under Mary. I know that Richard
22 has a lot to do with production of the Miss Florida
23 Pageant. That would be pretty much all I would know.
24 MR. BLOCK: I didn't get it in, but foundation on
25 all of those.
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1 BY MR. SANDERS:
2 Q And Kitty Potapow, what would have been her
3 responsibilities?
4 A I do know that Kitty Potapow was a person that
5 handled a lot of the contestants during the week of Miss
6 Florida. She was a person that provided their meals; she
7 was in charge of the hostesses, which are the ladies who
8 take care of the contestants during the week. Other than
9 that, I don't know what other official capacities that she
10 has.
11 Q Now, those are the names of the individuals that
12 you said comprised the board, or -- I think you said the
13 executive board; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. What, if any, authority, power does the
16 executive board have?
17 A I believe that they would -- as far as a
18 decision, an executive decision that needed to be made,
19 those would be the group of people that would do that.
20 Q What, to your knowledge, would have been an
21 executive decision?
22 A Maybe where they were going to hold a venue or
23 something; they'd want to vote on that. I'm not really
24 sure. I've never sat in on a board meeting.
25 Q But you didn't answer to the board; you answered
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1 directly to Mary Sullivan?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Then why did you include all the board members in
4 your e-mail; just for informational purposes?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Anything else, besides your resignation, that
7 occurred on September 19th, 2006?
8 A Not to my recollection.
9 Q Okay. Well, what, if anything, happened on any
10 particular date after September 19th, 2006?
11 A The only thing that would have occurred might
12 have been around two or three weeks later.
13 I had a cell phone that was provided for me
14 through the Miss Florida Pageant; so that, if people wanted
15 to schedule Miss Florida, they could call me direct on that
16 telephone. And Mary had just ordered business cards for me
17 to be able to give to people when I was with Miss Florida,
18 on an appearance, and if I needed to try to schedule her
19 for anything.
20 I did meet with Keith Williams. He happened to
21 be up in the Jacksonville area, and I didn't feel that it
22 was appropriate to send the phone by mail, so he met with
23 me briefly. It had to have been after work for me one day,
24 and I just simply -- it wouldn't have been after work; I
25 wasn't working -- I just simply handed him the phone and
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1 the business cards.
2 Q And was that the sole purpose of meeting?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you speak with him, to make that
5 arrangement?
6 A A couple of days prior, he let me know when he
7 was going to be coming into Jacksonville.
8 Q And what, if any, conversation did you-all have
9 about either your resignation or anything to do with the
10 Miss Jacksonville Pageant?
11 A I believe he was disappointed that I had
12 resigned. He said that he felt like, you know, that the
13 Miss Florida board would be losing someone who really cared
14 about the system. And he said, "Jennifer, I certainly
15 understand, but, you know, I am disappointed, but we
16 respect your decision." It was a very, very brief
17 conversation. He was on his way back to Orlando.
18 Q Any conversations about Miss Jacksonville, or
19 anything like that, at that point in time?
20 A No.
21 Q What, if any, other conversations, e-mails,
22 regular mail, contact of any kind regarding the Miss
23 Jacksonville Pageant?
24 A I never spoke with another board member about the
25 pageant after my resignation. There was no need to.
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1 Q Did you speak with anybody other than board
2 members?
3 A Not to my recollection.
4 Q So, based on your current testimony, you pretty
5 much felt out of the loop as of Tuesday, September 19th,
6 2006, except for, of course, the providing of the phone to
7 Keith Williams a couple of weeks later?
8 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. SANDERS:
11 Q Had you heard anything from anybody about the
12 Miss Jacksonville Pageant, Kevin Sanders, Cammie Sanders,
13 or anything to do with this litigation after September
14 19th, 2006?
15 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
16 THE WITNESS: No, sir, not to my recollection.
17 BY MR. SANDERS:
18 Q Other than your previous testimony and the
19 limited testimony that you've talked about here, what, if
20 any, other knowledge do you have about any events or
21 parties or circumstances concerning the Miss Jacksonville
22 franchise, Kevin Sanders and Cammie Sanders?
23 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
24 THE WITNESS: I did hear, after the fall
25 workshop, that the pageant had been renewed to Ruth
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1 Sidbury.
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q Who did you hear that through?
4 A Emily Martin.
5 Q And how did she hear it?
6 A My guess would be Ruth Sidbury.
7 Q Anything else that you had heard? Anybody you'd
8 spoken with or spoken to?
9 A Not to my recollection.
10 Q Let me show you an e-mail -- and it was
11 introduced as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8 in the deposition
12 of Mary Sullivan -- and ask if you've ever seen that e-mail
13 before.
14 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
15 A No, I have not seen this. It was not sent to me.
16 Q Okay. It is an e-mail from, looks like, Rob Loy
17 to Tim Fickey, with a copy to MaryCrwnMry.
18 That would be Mary Sullivan's e-mail address;
19 would that be correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And it indicates in this e-mail, 9-16-2006, at
22 8:27 p.m. -- it says, "Hi, Tim. For Miss Jacksonville and
23 Miss First Coast, you can move the current contact
24 information for executive directors, Kevin and Cammie
25 Sanders, and replace it with Jennifer Herrington, 890
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1 Thoroughbred Drive, Orange Park."
2 Did you know that your name had been placed as
3 the executive director on the Miss Florida website at some
4 point in time?
5 A I believe that I did notice that it had been
6 placed on there; yes, sir.
7 Q And do you know why or how such had been placed
8 on there?
9 A Well, according to your posting that was posted
10 on the Jacksonville Pageant's website on the 16th, you
11 inquired (sic) that myself and my husband Jeff would be
12 taking over the pageant, which you provided my e-mail
13 address and my home telephone number, which are here on
14 this very e-mail, and so I am assuming that -- and Mary had
15 also said that I could, you know, do the pageant; they
16 would be losing me as a business manager, but that I could,
17 you know, come on as an executive director, so I'm assuming
18 that this is why this happened.
19 Q Now, was that when you resigned from Miss
20 Florida, to be the executive director of the Jacksonville
21 Pageant, or did you resign as business manager for the
22 family reasons that you've mentioned earlier?
23 A Okay. Ask it -- ask it to me again.
24 Q Sure.
25 You mentioned earlier that you had sent in a
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1 resignation to the board as business manager.
2 A Yes.
3 Q I'll just ask you some foundational questions:
4 Can you be business manager and an executive director of a
5 local pageant, at the same time?
6 A I was not executive director of Miss
7 Jacksonville. I was a volunteer with the Miss Jacksonville
8 Pageant, which Mary said that I could do while I was
9 business manager for Miss Florida.
10 Q Well, now, clearly, this e-mail basically says to
11 remove the contact for executive directors and replace it
12 with "Jennifer Herrington."
13 It's not saying that you're a volunteer, is it?
14 A No, it's not.
15 Q Was it your understanding that you were acting as
16 an executive director at some point in time?
17 A After the phone conversation with Mary, on that
18 Saturday afternoon, of the 16th, when I told her that Jeff
19 and I would like to continue with the pageant. Mary then
20 said, once again, "Jennifer, we would hate to lose you as
21 business manager, but we would love to have you on as
22 executive director."
23 Q So, was that the reason why you sent in the
24 resignation, then, on the 19th?
25 A I resigned from both positions. I resigned from
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1 business manager and acting as the executive director of
2 this pageant, which I believe is probably in my resignation
3 letter, but I don't have it in front of me.
4 Q And both were for the same reason, family
5 concerns?
6 A There was a lot of -- there was a lot of things
7 going on. It was one of the hardest decisions I've ever
8 made.
9 Q Besides the family reasons, then, what were the
10 other reasons that were going on that required your
11 resignation?
12 A I just felt like, at that point in time, I
13 just -- I didn't have the financial backing; I could not
14 put on a pageant at that time; it would be too difficult.
15 And I just felt like, at this time, I needed to spend as
16 much time with my family as I could.
17 Q Any other reasons?
18 A No.
19 MR. SANDERS: We'll just make this Plaintiff's 1.
20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 BY MR. SANDERS:
23 Q Let me show you another e-mail; it's a two-page
24 e-mail; it's 9-17-2006. It says it's from MaryCrwnMry.
25 That, again, is Mary Sullivan; is that correct?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And then it's to a JPH Angel.
3 Who would that be?
4 A Myself.
5 Q This was Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 in the
6 Sullivan deposition. I'm going to ask you if you'll look
7 at that and see if you recognize that document.
8 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
9 A Yes, I do recognize this.
10 Q And did you receive that on or about 9-17 of
11 2006?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Let me ask you this -- just looking at the first
14 paragraph there, it says -- she says to you, "I have been
15 thinking most of the night about this bizarre situation."
16 What is the "bizarre situation" that she's
17 talking about there, if you know?
18 A Well, first of all, I wouldn't be able to speak
19 for Mary, but I'm sure she is occurring (sic) to the
20 posting on the website and also about the conversation that
21 I had with her regarding Cammie's demeanor on that
22 Saturday.
23 Q And you've already talked about the phone
24 conversation; that's in the previous deposition. We're not
25 going to go back through that.
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1 So, other than the conversation that Mary had
2 with you, what, if any, other information did she have
3 about the Miss Jacksonville situation?
4 A I would not know.
5 Q Now, she indicates, in the second paragraph,
6 "This is my recommendation: I would meet with them and
7 pick up records. I would then consider only holding the
8 Miss Jacksonville title and Miss Jacksonville Outstanding
9 Teen title, as opposed to trying to do four titles."
10 Had you and her talked about what titles you were
11 going to have as -- being the executive director?
12 A No; because I had not yet decided.
13 Q I'm looking at one, two, three, four paragraphs
14 down. That fourth paragraph begins with the word
15 "obviously," but I'm looking at the last sentence there
16 that says, "I think a lot..."
17 Do you see that one?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. She says, "I think a lot of this also
20 stemmed from the fact that you took on the business manager
21 position, even though we told you that you could still help
22 and volunteer with the pageant."
23 Do you know what she means by that?
24 A That maybe you and Cammie were upset that I
25 stepped down as a co-executive director with the two of you
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1 and took on the business manager position. That would be
2 what I would get from that sentence.
3 Q Now, down in the very last paragraph, it says,
4 "Thank you..."
5 Do you see that?
6 A Yes.
7 Q It says, "Thank you for stepping in and trying to
8 keep the pageants alive, both for the Miss Florida
9 Organization and the young women who would compete."
10 When she refers to you as "stepping in," what is
11 she referring to there?
12 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: Stepping in as the executive
14 director.
15 MR. SANDERS: I also want to mention that this
16 has a Bates stamp on it of 10021, down at the bottom.
17 I'll put that in as No. 2.
18 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. SANDERS:
21 Q Let me show you another e-mail. It's dated
22 9-17-2006, at 9:14 a.m., from JPH Angel to MaryCrwnMry;
23 it's one page long.
24 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
25 I'll ask you if you'll look at that and tell me
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1 if you recognize it.
2 A Yes, I do recognize it.
3 Q And what is that?
4 A This is an e-mail letting Mary know that I
5 received a phone call from Cammie at eight o'clock, telling
6 me not to come over to the house at ten.
7 Do you want me to read this?
8 Q Well, I mean, if you need to, you can. But I was
9 going to just see if -- let me just ask you a different
10 way: Is that your e-mail to Mary Sullivan?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And that's your signature; or, I guess, it
13 would be your e-mail signature down at the bottom of this?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you recall typing this?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, let me -- looking at the second paragraph,
18 I'm counting down one, two, three, four lines. At the end,
19 it says, "We are not..."
20 Do you see that?
21 A Where is it at?
22 Q Second paragraph, and then you're going to count
23 down four sentence lines, one, two, three, four, and it
24 says, "We are not..."
25 A I'm sorry. I don't see that.
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1 MR. BLOCK: Right where my pen is (indicating).
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I wasn't
3 looking that far over.
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q I'm just going to read it. It says, "We are not
6 comfortable about this situation, especially with Kevin's
7 mind frame right now."
8 What were you referring to, as far as "Kevin's
9 mind frame"?
10 A Going back to the conversations that I had with
11 Cammie on Saturday, and how upset she was. Also, my
12 husband Jeff spoke with you on that Saturday night, asking
13 you if you could possibly take the postings down off of the
14 website. You were very abrupt and rude with him on the
15 phone and actually hung up with him. That's what I meant
16 by that statement.
17 Q So what mind frame were you trying to inform Mary
18 Sullivan that Kevin Sanders was in?
19 A That, obviously, you were upset or angry and not
20 thinking clearly.
21 Q You gathered all that from an alleged
22 conversation between myself and your husband?
23 A I was --
24 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
25 THE WITNESS: I was right there when the
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1 conversation took place. I heard you on the phone.
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q It says, "We are very concerned and want to
4 proceed with the pageant, but fear the damage has been
5 done, considering the posting he did on the website." Then
6 it says, "What respectable, intelligent young woman would
7 want to be affiliated with this pageant?"
8 What did you mean by that?
9 A To be quite honest with you, kind of why you
10 threw your wife under the bus on that posting is exactly
11 what I meant by that. Of course, it's not posted in here,
12 but that was what I was thinking.
13 Q Now, did you ever mention that statement to Kitty
14 Potapow?
15 A I never spoke with Kitty Potapow.
16 Q Then you further state, continuing on there, it
17 says, "He has really lost touch with reality and what the
18 program is all about."
19 Where did you get all that from?
20 A By your actions and behavior, from the phone
21 conversations and, obviously, once again, the posting on
22 the Jacksonville Pageant website.
23 Q So, from one phone conversation and one posting
24 on the website, you divined all the information in that
25 paragraph?
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1 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; characterization.
2 THE WITNESS: Also, going back to Cammie saying
3 how the paperwork and photos had been thrown in the
4 garbage; how she was very upset. I, you know, assumed
5 at that time you were definitely having some issues.
6 BY MR. SANDERS:
7 Q But I think we've already addressed it in the
8 previous deposition, you got all the paperwork; did you
9 not?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And it wasn't damaged?
12 A Oh, first of all, when the paperwork was in the
13 boxes, I didn't have an opportunity to go through that
14 paperwork. Everything happened so fast, because you
15 requested the paperwork back to you.
16 Q Well, how many boxes were there that you got, if
17 you recall?
18 A Between roughly nine and eleven boxes, maybe.
19 Q Did any of it look -- at least, from an
20 appearance standpoint, even though you didn't get a chance
21 to look at it in detail -- like it had been thrown in a
22 garbage can or thrown away?
23 A I really could not say.
24 Q Then you say, "Personally, the way he is acting,
25 he is in this for himself and not for the good of the
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1 system."
2 Where did you derive that from? Again, the
3 telephone call and --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- the posting on the website?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection, going back, to form.
8 BY MR. SANDERS:
9 Q Now then, I'm looking down at the next paragraph.
10 There's not really a space between it, but it starts with,
11 "Cammie is fully aware..."
12 A Yes.
13 Q I'm looking at the sentence that starts right at
14 the beginning of it. It says, "I have also called a
15 meeting for tomorrow evening, at my house, with people who
16 are willing to help Jeff and I proceed with the pageant."
17 Did Jeff have any official position with the
18 pageant?
19 A He was going to be a co-executive director with
20 me.
21 Q And, according to the posting, he wasn't listed
22 as a co-executive director?
23 A On the posting that you placed on the website,
24 you said that Jennifer and Jeff Herrington have expressed
25 interest. You listed both of our names.
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1 Q Well, again, you don't know if I posted anything
2 on the website or not, do you?
3 A I'm pretty positive you did.
4 Q Did you see me post anything on the website?
5 A No, sir.
6 But then, again, the only people that would have
7 access to your computer would be yourself and your wife,
8 and that would really be ridiculous for your wife to write
9 that about herself.
10 Q Now, when you said you called a meeting for
11 tomorrow, what meeting was that supposed to be?
12 A On that Monday, after I left your office, I
13 stated in my previous deposition that Emily and I had tried
14 to find a venue, choreographer, hotel, restaurant. I
15 wanted to see if I, at that time, could figure out who I
16 could get to help me with the pageant.
17 Q So you were already acting as the executive
18 director at that point in time?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. And, I guess, who gave you the authority
21 to act as the executive director at that point?
22 A Mary Sullivan.
23 Q After that sentence, it says, "I have called all
24 of our titleholders; and, as you can imagine, they were all
25 very confused and shocked but have assured me that they
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1 will rally around Jeff and I and jump in and do whatever it
2 takes to keep the pageant going."
3 Had you called all the titleholders at that point
4 in time?
5 A I believe the ones that I could get ahold of;
6 yes, sir. Because I do know that Sarah Lee Fitzpatrick was
7 able to attend the meeting that was held on that Monday
8 evening.
9 Q And what, if anything, did you tell the
10 titleholders?
11 A I didn't really have to tell them too much,
12 because they had seen the posting.
13 Q So what did you add, in addition to what was on
14 the posting?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q Then you mentioned, "Michelle Keister, Sydney's
17 mom, is going to make some calls tomorrow about a place to
18 hold it, and I have also contacted a place not far from my
19 home, to see if it could be held there."
20 So you were actually looking into and finding a
21 place to hold the pageant?
22 A Yes. I contacted Michelle Keister because, at
23 that time, Sydney was a student at Douglas Anderson School
24 of the Arts. I knew that they had an incredible
25 auditorium; felt like, with her daughter being a student
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1 there, might could help me out. A place not far from my
2 home was -- St. Johns Community College has a performing
3 arts center called Thrasher Performing Arts, so I contacted
4 them.
5 Q Now, wasn't the pageant originally scheduled for
6 The Florida Theatre?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And hasn't it always been conducted at The
9 Florida Theatre?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Why did you choose not to continue with The
12 Florida Theatre?
13 A Due to the cost.
14 Q And why was the cost prohibitive?
15 A Because I didn't have a lot of financial backing,
16 and I knew what it took, cost-wise, to use The Florida
17 Theatre.
18 Q Well, now, I think we talked -- and, again, I
19 don't want to repeat myself on it, but did you even know
20 how many contestants you had at that point in time?
21 A If I had to make a rough guess, I would say maybe
22 six to seven.
23 Q And based on your past experience with The
24 Florida Theatre, can you put on a pageant at The Florida
25 Theatre with only six or seven contestants?
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1 A No, sir.
2 Q Were you still trying to keep the original date,
3 or were you --
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that date was in October?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, you mentioned, down beyond that -- I guess
8 it would be -- there's one sentence, and it's the last
9 sentence on that particular paragraph -- it says, "I have
10 already received some calls and e-mails from contestants;
11 and, right now, I am trying to handle damage control."
12 Did you actually receive calls and e-mails?
13 A The calls would have been -- probably would have
14 been from contestants that wanted to compete, as well as
15 e-mails.
16 I remember, in my previous deposition, I told you
17 I received e-mails from Erica Hayden, Kristen Murphy; a
18 phone call from Erin Lancaster. That would have been it.
19 Q Did you produce any of those e-mails to either of
20 your attorneys, in order to produce those for the
21 Plaintiff?
22 A I have given everything.
23 Q Okay. Do you recall giving those e-mails?
24 A If I -- I don't recall.
25 MR. SANDERS: That would be No. 3.
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1 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 was marked for
2 identification.)
3 MR. BLOCK: We produced whatever she has provided
4 us.
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q Let me show you another e-mail. It's dated
7 9-17-2006, at 10:21 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. This one
8 is from MaryCrwnMry to JPH Angel. It was Plaintiff's
9 Exhibit, in Mary Sullivan's deposition, No. 6. I believe
10 it has a Bates stamp on it -- it's two pages, 10024, and
11 10025.
12 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
13 I'll ask if you recognize that.
14 A I do recognize this.
15 Q Okay. And what is that?
16 A It looks like a response e-mail from an original
17 e-mail that I sent to Mary.
18 Q Do you recall, based -- and you can read it, if
19 you want; we can take a break, or you can do it while we
20 wait -- do you recall what parts of it were sent by you and
21 what the response was?
22 A Well, obviously, I would have started off with
23 "Good Morning, Mary." And the first paragraph ends with
24 "...will return late morning"; that's from me.
25 The part where it starts off, "Jennifer, I have
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1 discussed this situation..." that's obviously from Mary,
2 going all the way down to "...the board should have
3 control."
4 My next statement starts off with, "She informed
5 me that Kevin is being very possessive..." and ends with
6 "...president of the scholarship organization."
7 Mary starts up again with, "Jennifer, there is no
8 existing franchise agreement..." and goes all the way to
9 the second page to a line that says, "Imagine if you had
10 not informed me." That is underlined.
11 My next response starts up with, "Cammie is fully
12 aware..." and ends at "...am trying to handle damage
13 control."
14 She starts up again with, "Please discuss this
15 with Jeff..." and ends it with "...with a heart and love
16 for the program."
17 And then my last posting is, "I will keep you
18 posted on anything..." and it has my name, "Jennifer."
19 Q So this is the response to your e-mail that we've
20 just introduced as Exhibit No. 3; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, she suggests, in the portion that you said
23 was her response to your first paragraph, that you should
24 contact board members of the NFSO.
25 Did you ever contact any board members of the
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1 North Florida Scholarship Organization?
2 A The only person that I contacted was Emily
3 Martin.
4 Q Is there any reason why you never contacted any
5 other board members?
6 A Honestly, I don't have telephone numbers for Teri
7 or Betty.
8 Q I'm looking at the paragraph after. I guess it
9 would be, if I counted down, one, two, three, four -- this
10 would be the fifth paragraph; it says, "She informed me..."
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q Was that in your original e-mail, which was the
13 Exhibit No. 3?
14 A Yes, it is.
15 Q Where is that at in that e-mail?
16 A It's the beginning of the second paragraph. It's
17 right there (indicating).
18 Q You had indicated you wrote everything beyond
19 that, down to the next sentence, or the next paragraph,
20 where it says "Jennifer," but I'm looking at the "She
21 informed me..." paragraph. There's a paragraph after that
22 that says, "Obviously, and you are totally correct..."
23 Did you write that one, or did Mary?
24 A No; Mary wrote that. I'm sorry. It looked like
25 it was the same type font, so, no, Mary wrote that.
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1 Q Okay. Now, when she says, "Obviously, and you
2 are totally correct; Kevin is not acting in a rational
3 manner," what did you tell her to make her believe that
4 Kevin Sanders was not acting in a rational manner?
5 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
6 THE WITNESS: I believe it would have probably
7 been from the phone conversation between you and Jeff
8 on that Saturday night, and also telling her about
9 Cammie telling me that you had thrown the items in the
10 trash. And, of course, she could have also thought
11 that from, again, the posting on the website.
12 BY MR. SANDERS:
13 Q Well, what in the posting on the website would
14 make someone believe that someone else is irrational?
15 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I guess it would be from the way
17 things were worded.
18 BY MR. SANDERS:
19 Q And how were they worded, to make someone believe
20 that someone was acting irrationally?
21 A The way that you posted it out there; you did not
22 contact anyone about it, you just posted it out there on
23 the website for everyone to see.
24 Q Now, this posting that you're talking about was
25 the day before the meeting -- is that correct? -- with all
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1 the -- the deadline for contestants.
2 A Yes, it was.
3 Q And, in fact, I guess you had a meeting on that
4 particular Sunday; is that correct?
5 A No. The meeting was Monday evening.
6 Q Monday evening; okay.
7 And you indicated that you only had maybe six or
8 seven contestants for the entire pageant; is that correct?
9 A Right.
10 Q And you've already acknowledged that you couldn't
11 put on a pageant at The Florida Theatre with those kinds of
12 numbers; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q So why is it improper to notice people that the
15 pageant has to be canceled?
16 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Should you have done it that way,
18 or should you have called the contestants, yourself,
19 and asked them not to come over on that Sunday,
20 especially for girls who were coming a great deal --
21 great distance; shouldn't you have just contacted them
22 by phone?
23 BY MR. SANDERS:
24 Q Well, I guess how does posting that on the
25 website make someone seem irrational?
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1 A Because that's not like you to do what you did,
2 and you did it.
3 Q Do you have anything specific with regards to the
4 alleged posting that would lead Mary Sullivan or yourself
5 to conclude that Kevin Sanders was not acting in a rational
6 manner?
7 A No.
8 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
9 BY MR. SANDERS:
10 Q Then she goes on to say, "His thought process
11 seems to be confused, since he would have to realize that
12 he alone cannot make decisions for the board."
13 What does she mean by that? What decisions were
14 you and her discussing that Kevin Sanders was making
15 without the board?
16 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I believe it would probably come
18 back -- maybe up here, to the very beginning -- I
19 guess, with me realizing there was no franchise
20 agreement and that you -- you would have to call a
21 board meeting of the NFSO to let them know what you
22 were going to do, and you had not done so.
23 BY MR. SANDERS:
24 Q And how do you know that that had not been done?
25 A Emily said you never contacted her.
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1 Q So that's the only basis that you have on that?
2 A She would be the only one; yes, sir.
3 Q And, of course, you had resigned at that point;
4 had you not?
5 A No. I did not resign until Tuesday.
6 Q Well, I'm talking -- well, let me ask: You had
7 resigned from the North Florida Scholarship Organization
8 before that, because you were the business manager?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Because you were not allowed to be on the board
11 of a local pageant and be business manager?
12 A Correct.
13 Q You were informed that by Mary Sullivan; is that
14 correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q So all of that line would have been based on the
17 fact that Emily Martin did not receive a phone call or some
18 statement with regards to a board meeting?
19 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming here that Mary is
21 wondering why you have not contacted the board.
22 BY MR. SANDERS:
23 Q Which board?
24 A The NFSO.
25 Q And again, you don't know whether or not the
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1 board was contacted. The only thing you know is whether or
2 not Emily Martin was or was not contacted; is that correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q But you told Mary Sullivan that Kevin Sanders had
5 not contacted the board at the NFSO, based on one, singular
6 statement from Emily Martin?
7 A I told her, to my knowledge, I did not know if
8 the board members had been contacted.
9 Q Well, obviously, you told her more than that,
10 because she says, "His thought process seems to be
11 confused, since he would have to realize that he alone
12 cannot make decisions for the board." So you must have
13 said something beyond that.
14 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q Do you recall what you said to Mary Sullivan?
17 A I think she may have asked me if I -- if one of
18 the board members or any of the board members had contacted
19 me, and I told her no. I had not received any phone calls
20 from any of the board members at all.
21 Q But, of course, you weren't on the board at that
22 point, were you?
23 A I was a pageant volunteer.
24 Q But not on the board?
25 A According to your bylaws, my name was still on
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1 there. You had not removed me.
2 Q But you had resigned; had you not?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, let's talk about the fact that she's saying
5 that there's no existing franchise agreement.
6 When are franchise agreements normally approved?
7 A They're typically approved, I guess, at the fall
8 workshop.
9 Q Had the fall workshop occurred as of September
10 17th, 2006?
11 A No.
12 Q So there couldn't have been a franchise agreement
13 for any of the other franchises out there -- Miss Tampa,
14 Miss St. Petersburg, Miss Miami, Miss Orlando -- none of
15 those would have been a -- there would have been no
16 franchise agreements for any of the Miss Florida locals;
17 would there have been?
18 A I cannot speak for those other pageants, whether
19 or not they had already submitted their franchise
20 agreements. I would have no way of knowing that.
21 All I knew was that you and Cammie had not
22 submitted a franchise agreement for the Miss
23 Jacksonville/First Coast Pageant as of that date.
24 Q And do you recall what the deadline is for
25 submitting the franchise agreement?
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1 A I do not.
2 Q If I were to tell you that it's as of the date of
3 the fall workshop, would that refresh your recollection?
4 A I would think that it would have to be --
5 wouldn't it have to be before your pageant?
6 Q Well, again, you and I both agree that a
7 franchise agreement is not approved until the fall
8 workshop; is that correct?
9 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q Okay. And if you do or do not agree that you, as
13 business manager, may not have been involved with franchise
14 agreements, do you recall whether or not the deadline for
15 the franchise agreement was at the time of the fall
16 workshop?
17 A I do not know.
18 Q I'm looking at the second page now. It would be,
19 I guess -- well, if you count the top as the first
20 paragraph, it would be the second paragraph. It starts
21 with, "It is unfortunate..."
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. And that's Mary Sullivan speaking, or
24 typing?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And it says, "It is unfortunate that Kevin has
2 shown little to no respect in his recent actions for the
3 program or the young women that compete in the program."
4 Do you know what she's talking about, as far as
5 the actions of Kevin Sanders?
6 A I cannot speak for Ms. Sullivan.
7 Q Other than what you were saying -- the website
8 posting, your conversation with her about an alleged
9 conversation between me and Jeff, and -- what was the other
10 thing that you said? I mean, do you know anything that
11 she's basing that on, other than what you've previously
12 said?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Let me ask you this: To your knowledge, are
15 there any bylaws or written rules or regulations or
16 anything that the Miss Florida Pageant has with regards to
17 the cancellation or changing the dates of pageants?
18 A I would have not -- no knowledge of that.
19 Q Now, she says, "His sudden decision to quit,
20 cancel the pageant and then post the cancellation in the
21 manner in which he did, placing all blame on Cammie,
22 indicates bitterness and contempt against the pageant
23 system."
24 Why does she say that, if you know?
25 A I have no way of knowing that. I don't know what
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1 Mary was thinking at this time.
2 Q But still, it was just e-mails and conversations
3 between you and her that have led up to this e-mail; is
4 that correct?
5 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form and foundation.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm assuming that she is
7 going -- like she says, she's going back to the
8 posting on the website, where you placed all blame on
9 Cammie. I'm assuming that's what she's speaking
10 about.
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q Well, what blame was placed on Cammie, to the
13 best of your recollection, on the posting on the website?
14 A Okay. I would have to say: The pageant centered
15 around Cammie, the pageant was Cammie, the pressures of
16 raising Ciara -- I'm assuming that's what she's talking
17 about.
18 Q So why is that placing blame?
19 A Again, that would be something, you know, you
20 would have to take up with Ms. Sullivan.
21 Q Now, she indicates after that sentence, "The fact
22 that they have never followed protocol and informed the
23 Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant of their decision further
24 indicates a lack of respect..."
25 What protocol is she talking about there?
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1 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: I would assume either a phone call
3 or, perhaps, an e-mail, letting her know that you-all
4 had decided you were not going to proceed with the
5 pageant. I'm sure that's what she's talking about.
6 BY MR. SANDERS:
7 Q And again, I can go back to my previous question:
8 What rule or bylaw or regulation or franchise rule or --
9 where is it written about a local having to provide that
10 information to the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant?
11 A I would not know, sir.
12 Q And I'll just tell you, I've asked all of the
13 board members, and they don't know either.
14 MR. BLOCK: Objection.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q So do you know where Mary Sullivan got the
17 information that there was some kind of violation of
18 protocol?
19 A I would not know, sir.
20 Q Now, if I look at the next paragraph after that,
21 where it starts, "They have given up..." I'm looking at the
22 second sentence, which starts on the second line, a little
23 more than halfway through, and it says, "Under normal
24 circumstances..."
25 A Yes.
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1 Q It says, "Under normal circumstances, we would
2 work closely with a group to protect their franchise and
3 the pageant's name. If personal problems existed, we would
4 give consideration to those problems and assist the
5 group..." I guess it says "...in any possible." I assume
6 she maybe meant to say "...in any possible way."
7 She wrote that, not you; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Did you and Mary Sullivan ever discuss,
10 prior to this e-mail, any contact by Mary Sullivan with
11 Kevin Sanders or Cammie Sanders regarding the pageant?
12 A No.
13 Q Did she ever indicate to you that she had
14 contacted, or any other board member had contacted Cammie
15 Sanders or Kevin Sanders about this?
16 A No, she did not indicate to me.
17 Q Did she indicate to you in any form or fashion
18 that she was trying to work closely with Cammie or Kevin
19 Sanders to protect their franchise and their pageant's
20 name?
21 A No, she did not indicate to me.
22 Q Now then, I'm going down, I guess, to the last
23 line -- I think you even quoted it earlier, as you were
24 identifying things -- it says, "Imagine if you had not
25 informed me."
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1 A We're in that same paragraph?
2 Q Same paragraph; it's underlined.
3 A Okay.
4 Q It would seem that Ms. Sullivan was indicating
5 that you were the sole source of the information about the
6 pageant.
7 What, if anything, did you inform her, other than
8 what you've already admitted to?
9 MR. BLOCK: Form.
10 THE WITNESS: That would -- that would be it.
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q So, based on what you're admitting that you've
13 told her, she came up with this whole letter with regards
14 to the blame on Cammie and the lack of respect for the
15 system, the lack of protocol -- that all just came from the
16 website, the telephone conversation and the other matter
17 that you said you were disclosed?
18 MR. BLOCK: Form.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 BY MR. SANDERS:
21 Q I'm looking -- in the next paragraph, you
22 indicated -- and I believe it's on here -- that you
23 actually were the one that typed that.
24 I'm looking at the next paragraph. It says,
25 "Please discuss this with Jeff..."
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1 A Yes.
2 Q She says, "Please discuss this with Jeff and let
3 me know if you wish to proceed independently of Kevin and
4 Cammie."
5 What did she mean by "proceed independently of
6 Kevin and Cammie"?
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, since you had resigned and
9 canceled the pageant, she knew that I would not be
10 affiliated with you and Cammie and that Jeff and I
11 would be proceeding with the pageant.
12 BY MR. SANDERS:
13 Q So she was talking about proceeding with the Miss
14 Jacksonville Pageant?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Again, in this -- I guess it would be the
17 paragraph after that; it says, "We would lose you as
18 business manager, but we would gain an executive director
19 with a heart and love for the program."
20 That's Mary Sullivan speaking, again -- typing?
21 A Yes, it is.
22 Q Thank you.
23 And so she's acknowledging that you were the
24 business manager, I guess, at the time that this letter was
25 sent out?
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1 A Yes.
2 MR. SANDERS: Okay. That will be No. 4.
3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q Let me show you a one-page e-mail. It says,
7 "Subject: Pageant and Business Manager." It's dated
8 9-19-2006, at 7:57 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. It was from
9 JPH Angel to MaryCrwnMry, with cc copies to -- it looks
10 like Rob Loy's e-mail address, Kitty Potapow's address,
11 Richard Walker's address, Ray McLeod's address, and Keith
12 Williams' address. It was Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 16 in
13 the Sullivan deposition.
14 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
15 I'll ask you if you recognize that.
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q And did you receive that -- now, you sent that,
18 from yourself to Mary Sullivan; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is this -- I think you spoke of it earlier --
21 is this the resignation e-mail that you were referring to?
22 A Yes.
23 Q I think you used the term "letter," but -- did
24 you actually send a formal letter, or was this your
25 formal --
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1 A This was it.
2 Q Counting down -- after it says, "Hi, Mary" --
3 one, two, three, four paragraphs, it says, "I have also
4 noticed..."
5 A Yes, I see that.
6 Q You typed in: I have also noticed that my name
7 and address are listed under the Miss First Coast Pageant
8 on the Miss Florida website, and Kevin's (sic) with my
9 address is listed under Miss Jacksonville. You may want
10 Rob or the webmaster to correct that when he (sic) get a
11 chance.
12 Is that what you wrote?
13 A I don't have "when he"; I have "when they get a
14 chance."
15 Q I'm sorry. "When they get a chance"; that's
16 fine.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you actually go out to the website?
19 A To the Miss Florida website?
20 Q Yes.
21 A Yes.
22 Q And your name was listed as being the director,
23 executive director of the Miss First Coast Pageant?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And when you looked, Kevin Sanders was listed as
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1 the executive director for the Miss Jacksonville Pageant?
2 A Right; but it had my address.
3 Q And again, but your -- I guess your Miss First
4 Coast address was the address for Kevin Sanders; is that
5 correct?
6 A I don't know how the addresses were at that time.
7 All I knew was that I saw my address underneath your name.
8 Q But Kevin Sanders was listed as the executive
9 director.
10 Did you go out there that day, on 9-19, or when
11 was that listed?
12 A I don't remember when I went out there. I don't
13 remember the date.
14 Q So it was at least on 9-19, is when you noticed
15 it, then, because you wouldn't have -- you wouldn't have
16 put that on here if you hadn't seen it on the Miss Florida
17 website?
18 A I would assume so.
19 Q I'm looking down -- there's another paragraph,
20 and then there's a paragraph that starts after that, even
21 though there's not a space. It says, "You," comma, "Mary,"
22 dash...
23 A Yes.
24 Q You see that?
25 A (Witness indicating affirmatively.)
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1 Q You indicate, "You," comma, "Mary -- personally,
2 along with Rob, Keith, Richard and Kitty -- took a chance
3 on me as business manager when my titleholder was crowned
4 under false pretenses."
5 I've asked every board member what you meant by
6 that, and none of them seems to know what you meant by
7 that. Could you explain to me what crowning a titleholder
8 "under false pretenses" meant.
9 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: That titleholder would have been
11 Miss Jacksonville -- at the time, Candace Cragg --
12 which you and I learned later on, after she was
13 crowned Miss Florida, that her paperwork was done
14 incorrectly.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q And, I guess -- I guess that's where my question
17 comes in: If it wasn't found out until later, how was --
18 A Kevin --
19 Q -- was there blame as far as being crowned under
20 false pretenses?
21 A She resigned as Miss Florida on September 4th.
22 That was her resignation letter. So this would have --
23 this was done after that date. Her last acting day as Miss
24 Florida was Labor Day, September the 4th.
25 Q 2006?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q The question still is: Why are you saying that
3 they took a chance on you after your titleholder was
4 crowned under false pretenses?
5 A I had never been a business manager before. I
6 felt that, after everything that happened with our
7 titleholder at that time, that they may want me to step
8 down and have someone else come in.
9 Q Did you believe that you had some blame with
10 regards to that?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you believe that Kevin Sanders or Cammie
13 Sanders had some blame to that?
14 A No.
15 Q Why mention it at all?
16 A Because I wanted them to know they took a chance
17 on me at that time. That's why I did it. This is a very
18 emotional e-mail for me.
19 Q The next paragraph, it starts with, "So, with
20 that being said..."
21 A Yes.
22 Q You typed, "So, with that being said, I would
23 like to let you know that I will not be pursuing a
24 franchise and would like to step down as business manager."
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And I think you've previously testified that the
2 only reason you did that was because of what you found out
3 about the health concerns for your father at that time.
4 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q By reading this e-mail, do you have a chance to
7 reflect that you had other reasons?
8 A The only person that knew about my father's
9 illness --
10 MR. BLOCK: Same objection to form.
11 Sorry.
12 THE WITNESS: The only person that knew about my
13 father's illness was Mary. She's the only one I had
14 discussed it with. I didn't feel like it needed to be
15 made public knowledge, for everyone. I did not want
16 to put this in an e-mail that was going out to Rob,
17 Kitty, Keith, Richard and Ray McLeod.
18 BY MR. SANDERS:
19 Q But you thought it was appropriate to put
20 something in there about a titleholder that was crowned
21 under false pretenses, when you admitted here that no one
22 had knowledge of that.
23 Why did you feel one was appropriate and the
24 other one wasn't?
25 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
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1 THE WITNESS: Who are you saying did not have
2 knowledge about it? All of these board members had
3 knowledge of it. She'd already resigned.
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q And again, I'm talking about Jennifer Herrington,
6 Kevin Sanders and Cammie Sanders.
7 A Reask the question.
8 Q I take the implication in that statement that
9 you're almost apologizing to Mary, Rob, Keith, Richard and
10 Kitty for submitting a titleholder that you knew was
11 crowned under false pretenses. That's my interpretation of
12 that.
13 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: That's not what I meant by that.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q You've already acknowledged that you had no
17 knowledge of it, Kevin had no knowledge of it, and Cammie
18 Sanders had no knowledge; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you didn't want them -- even though you said
21 that, earlier in your deposition, that you resigned because
22 of your father, you didn't want them to know about that
23 sensitive subject, but you felt like you needed to mention
24 about the false pretenses of your former titleholder?
25 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. BLOCK: Also, argumentative.
3 BY MR. SANDERS:
4 Q "Please accept" -- this is your next statement:
5 "Please accept my deepest apologies for doing this now, but
6 I can assure you I did not make this decision without
7 giving it some thought. To help you out, I will not leave
8 you high and dry and will fulfill my responsibilities until
9 you can find a replacement. I also want you to know that
10 not an ill word will come out of my mouth concerning this
11 pageant."
12 Well, let's just take them one at a time here:
13 Why are you apologizing?
14 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm probably apologizing because,
16 if I remember correctly, we had a lot going on right
17 then with Miss Florida, as far as appearances. When I
18 say "for doing this now," it's because I knew that we
19 had some upcoming appearances that I had actually told
20 Mary that I would accompany Miss Florida on. "To help
21 you out, I will not leave you high and dry and will
22 fulfill my responsibilities until you can find a
23 replacement."
24 BY MR. SANDERS:
25 Q Which would contradict your statement that you
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1 apologize for not being able to make the appearances. Your
2 intent was to make those appearances; was it not?
3 MR. BLOCK: Form, and argumentative.
4 THE WITNESS: Right. I just did not place that
5 in there.
6 BY MR. SANDERS:
7 Q But you're still confident your apologies were
8 for not being able to fulfill the obligations, even though
9 your next statement says that you intended to fulfill your
10 obligations?
11 MR. BLOCK: Form, and argumentative.
12 THE WITNESS: Right.
13 BY MR. SANDERS:
14 Q And when you say, "I also want you to know that
15 not an ill word will come out of my mouth concerning this
16 pageant," what did you mean by that?
17 A That I have the utmost of (sic) respect for them,
18 that they're an incredible organization, and that I support
19 them wholeheartedly.
20 Q Well, why didn't you say that in your letter,
21 instead of taking the negative, that an ill word -- as if
22 there were some ill words that you could say?
23 A Mr. Sanders, at the time that I was writing this,
24 I was sobbing heavily. I'd had a very rough day that day.
25 I had learned that I was not going to have my father around
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1 until Thanksgiving, so I was very upset.
2 Q So you chose to say that not an ill word would
3 come out of your mouth, even though you had no ill words to
4 say about the pageant?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q I'm going down -- I'll just read it, since we're
7 there. It says, "I have and always will have the utmost of
8 respect for this Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant. There
9 is not any one thing that anyone has done to affect my
10 decision. It is something that I feel is the best thing
11 for me at this time." And here's the sentence that I'm
12 going to ask you questions about: "I will simply tell
13 everyone that this was my decision."
14 Why did you put that statement in there?
15 A So, in case anyone asked me, I would let them
16 know that I made this decision on my own, if I happened to
17 be contacted by anyone, which -- that's why I put it.
18 Q Well, did you believe that some people were going
19 to think that the board fired you or got rid of you or --
20 A No.
21 (Brief interruption.)
22 MR. BLOCK: Do you need to take a moment?
23 MR. SANDERS: No.
24 This will be No. 5, I think.
25 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 was marked for
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1 identification.)
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q Let me show you another e-mail. It was
4 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7 in the Mary Sullivan deposition.
5 The "Subject" on it says, "Your recent e-mail." It's dated
6 9-20-2006, at 3:35 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, from
7 MaryCrwnMry to JPH Angel. Let me ask you if you recognize
8 that e-mail.
9 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
10 A Yes, I do recognize it.
11 Q And is that an e-mail from Mary Sullivan to you,
12 in response to your resignation letter?
13 A Yes, it is.
14 Q She indicates, "Dear Jennifer, I guess I am
15 somewhat shocked and confused by your most recent e-mail."
16 Do you know why she might be shocked and
17 confused?
18 A Because she assumed that I was going to be
19 sending a franchise agreement in for the Miss Jacksonville
20 Pageant.
21 Q She goes on further and says, "After speaking
22 with you two nights ago, I was under the impression that
23 you were going to send by fax a franchise agreement for a
24 local pageant in Jacksonville."
25 Did you speak with her two nights prior to that,
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1 which would have been, I guess, on the 18th?
2 A I believe I called her from the meeting that was
3 held at my house.
4 I had never filled out a franchise agreement
5 before. Cammie always took care of that for our pageant.
6 I had two questions on what I was supposed to fill out on
7 lines, different lines. It was, maybe, a five-minute
8 conversation.
9 Q So, then your decision would have been -- to
10 resign would have been made during that two-day period;
11 roughly, a 36-hour period; is that correct?
12 A My decision to resign was pretty much made on
13 that Tuesday, the 19th.
14 Q Now, she goes on and says, "We discussed that Ray
15 and I had spoken with Kevin, and he stated he would
16 continue to do the Miss Jacksonville Pageant, but not Miss
17 First Coast."
18 Is that the conversation that you had from that
19 Tuesday?
20 You said it was about the questions on the
21 franchise agreement. Did you discuss with Mary the fact
22 that Kevin Sanders was going to be continuing to do the
23 Miss Jacksonville franchise?
24 A I don't remember that.
25 Q Would Mary Sullivan be lying in making that
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1 statement in this e-mail?
2 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, and foundation.
3 THE WITNESS: I would not call her a liar; no,
4 sir. I just simply don't remember that.
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q Well, we know from your statement in the previous
7 agreement -- I believe we've labeled that as 5, your
8 resignation letter -- that, apparently, you went out to the
9 website, and you were listed under Miss First Coast and not
10 the Miss Jacksonville Pageant; is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And she's mentioning a conversation that she had
13 with you two nights prior to your resignation, where it
14 would seem that you had a conversation that you were going
15 to be submitting a franchise for Miss First Coast and that
16 Kevin Sanders would be continuing the Jacksonville Pageant.
17 Are you saying you don't recall that conversation
18 with her?
19 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: At that time, on that Monday night,
21 there was so much confusion going on. I do remember
22 speaking with her, but I don't remember the content of
23 that conversation.
24 BY MR. SANDERS:
25 Q So your concern about not having the Miss
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1 Jacksonville Pageant franchise -- but, instead, having the
2 Miss First Coast franchise -- had nothing to do with your
3 decision to resign from both business manager and -- and
4 from refusing to submit a franchise application?
5 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
6 THE WITNESS: I had not even decided if I was
7 even going to call the pageant Miss First Coast. I
8 even thought of, if I formed my corporation, of just
9 coming up with a totally different name.
10 BY MR. SANDERS:
11 Q Now, she says, "If, for some reason, that Kevin
12 decided differently or, by October 14th, he did not submit
13 a franchise agreement, it was agreed that the Miss
14 Jacksonville title would be available."
15 Now, do you recall having that conversation with
16 her?
17 A Again, I don't remember, but I may have had that
18 conversation with her in the course of that phone call.
19 Q Okay. So she may have said to you that Kevin has
20 the Miss Jacksonville franchise; and, as long as he submits
21 it by October 14th, or unless he decides differently, he'll
22 be doing Jacksonville; if not, it will be available; is
23 that correct?
24 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
25 THE WITNESS: She may have.
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1 BY MR. SANDERS:
2 Q Well, again, she's put that in print to you.
3 You recall getting this e-mail, right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And would you be calling her a liar if she put
6 that in the e-mail to you, recalling that conversation?
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I am not calling her a
9 liar.
10 BY MR. SANDERS:
11 Q And I'm looking down -- I guess she's dissected
12 this response e-mail, the same as she did the other one, by
13 responding to your e-mail in the same one; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
16 BY MR. SANDERS:
17 Q If you'll look down, I think you can tell more
18 easily in this one than in the other one the different
19 fonts. If you look past your part, it says, "I called
20 Keith..." It's one, two, three, four down.
21 A I see it.
22 Q It says, "I called Keith this morning to see if
23 he could shed some light on your decision."
24 Do you know why she would call Keith?
25 A I do not know.
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1 Q Did you discuss this matter with Keith prior to
2 making your decision?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Are you just known for telling Keith anything
5 going on in your life?
6 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: Keith and I have always been pretty
8 good friends. Maybe she's thinking that I called him.
9 BY MR. SANDERS:
10 Q She goes on further and says, "Ray also called me
11 to say that he had spoken to you yesterday..." that would
12 have been on the 19th "...regarding the incorporation
13 documents; and, as far as he knew, you were planning to
14 direct a local pageant."
15 When did you call Ray on the 19th?
16 A It would have been that morning of the 19th,
17 because it would have been before I came to your office
18 that day at one o'clock.
19 Q Now, wasn't the 19th the day that you said you
20 had to take your father --
21 A I'm sorry. It would have been the 18th. Tuesday
22 was the 19th, so I spoke with Ray the morning of the 18th.
23 Q So that may have just been a failed memory on Ray
24 telling Mary that he thought it was yesterday, then?
25 A Yes.
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1 I did not speak with Ray on -- I couldn't have.
2 Q And she puts down, after that, "I did not
3 understand what had motivated you to resign from business
4 manager or as a local pageant director."
5 Do you know what she means by that?
6 A No, sir. I'm sure -- again, I'm assuming by that
7 statement, she must have been surprised.
8 Q Now, she seemed to do a lot of following up on
9 your resignation.
10 Do you know of any following up that she did,
11 again, with either Kevin Sanders or Cammie Sanders, with
12 regards to the Jacksonville Pageant, to the extent that she
13 did with your resignation?
14 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I would not have any knowledge of
16 that.
17 BY MR. SANDERS:
18 Q Now, you had previously testified that you had
19 discussed your father's medical condition with her, and
20 that she was the only one out of the board, and that was
21 the reason why you didn't feel you needed to put it in your
22 resignation letter, but that she knew that your father was
23 having problems.
24 Why, then, is Mary so shocked and confused? And
25 why is she calling Keith and Ray to find out why you've
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1 resigned if the statement that you made earlier was true?
2 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
3 THE WITNESS: I could not speak for Ms. Sullivan.
4 I did not tell -- I'm sure Mary was not aware of the
5 day that I had had on that Tuesday, with my father and
6 the doctor. I did not tell her this.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q Well, I thought your previous testimony said you
9 had discussed it with her.
10 A She knew he was ill. I did not tell her what had
11 taken place on that Tuesday, the 19th.
12 Q I'm looking at the very next paragraph. She
13 says, "Of course, no one ever said that this would be easy,
14 and it isn't."
15 Do you know what she's referring to in that
16 paragraph?
17 A No, I do not.
18 Q So you don't recall any conversation you had with
19 her with regards to why she would make that statement?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Well, she goes on and says, "I deal with so many
22 problems in one day that I often don't know if I am
23 beginning or ending my day. They all run together.
24 However, from the time that I received the call on Saturday
25 until reading your e-mail yesterday, this situation has
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1 totally perplexed me."
2 It seemed to me that she's referring to your call
3 to her about the pageant, and then your resignation.
4 What, if anything, that you recall, other than
5 what you've already testified to, would lead her to be
6 perplexed --
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
8 BY MR. SANDERS:
9 Q -- or to believe that things weren't easy?
10 MR. BLOCK: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I would not -- I would not know.
12 BY MR. SANDERS:
13 Q Then she goes on and says, "I don't often get
14 involved in the problems of locals, unless the local
15 chooses to involve the MFP," which is the Miss Florida
16 Pageant.
17 That's the statement that she wrote there?
18 A Yes, it is.
19 Q So she doesn't normally get involved in any local
20 situations, based on that; is that what she's saying?
21 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: That's the way it reads.
23 BY MR. SANDERS:
24 Q Then it says, "Same with Miss America; they don't
25 involve themselves with state organizations, unless it is
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1 absolutely necessary. Logical, since taking all the time
2 and energy to handle less-than-positive situations drains
3 the batteries until they are dry."
4 That was all statements made by Mary Sullivan?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, she says, "I respect your decision and will
7 start the process of looking for a business manager for
8 Allison and Sydney." She also says, "I also understand
9 that you do not want to stage a local, but if you should
10 change your mind at any time, please let me know."
11 Is that what she said?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Have you changed your mind about running a local?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What local are you running now?
16 A Miss Senior High and Miss Northeast Florida.
17 Q And when were you awarded that franchise?
18 A January of this year.
19 Q And that would be of 2009, when you say "this
20 year"?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what were the circumstances of requesting
23 that franchise?
24 A The Miss Senior High Pageant is a pageant that is
25 held by all of the high school titles over about three or
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1 four different counties. I learned that Miss America had a
2 rule that a franchise pageant could be held under local
3 fair, festival or high school pageants, which qualified my
4 pageant as a local, with the exception that I cannot crown
5 her with an official Miss America crown. She has to be
6 crowned afterwards. And my pageant contestants do not
7 compete in swimsuit.
8 Q Well, they have to compete in swimsuit at the
9 Miss Florida Pageant?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are the judging standards the same?
12 A No.
13 MR. BLOCK: I'm going to just have a standing
14 objection to the relevance of a 2009 franchise.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q Is it a different franchise form than the one
17 that's normally sent out?
18 MR. BLOCK: Again, the same objections.
19 THE WITNESS: It just states that it's held under
20 fair/festival/high school.
21 MR. BLOCK: And foundation.
22 BY MR. SANDERS:
23 Q And is that, again, another bylaw or a rule or a
24 regulation, or where is that written down at?
25 MR. BLOCK: Form, foundation, relevance.
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1 THE WITNESS: It would be in my franchise
2 agreement.
3 BY MR. SANDERS:
4 Q And again, we had talked about earlier that most
5 of the franchises are given at the fall workshop.
6 How did you get a franchise in January?
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection.
8 I'm going to ask to call the judge. The judge
9 has talked to us not about this issue -- so we need
10 clarification -- but on other deponents, when we get
11 into 2009. So let's call the judge.
12 MR. SANDERS: Call him. I don't have any
13 problem.
14 (Discussion off the record.)
15 MR. BLOCK: Do you want to explain the relevance
16 on the record?
17 MR. SANDERS: Sure.
18 MR. BLOCK: Okay.
19 MR. SANDERS: I asked her questions about an
20 e-mail that was sent on 9-20-2006.
21 MR. BLOCK: No; 9-20-2006, I don't have any
22 problems with anything that happened that day. You
23 were talking about a pageant in January of '09.
24 MR. SANDERS: And it says, "I understand that you
25 do not want to stage a local, but if you should change
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1 your mind at any time, please let me know."
2 She indicated that she had changed her mind.
3 MR. BLOCK: Right.
4 MR. SANDERS: I am inquiring as to the process
5 that she went through to obtain that franchise, to see
6 if it's similar to the process that was required in
7 2006.
8 MR. BLOCK: I guess -- yeah. And my question is,
9 why would that be relevant? If they've completely
10 changed it or did the same process, it's irrelevant.
11 The process was what it was in '06. It doesn't matter
12 what it was in '09.
13 MR. SANDERS: Well, that's the whole relevancy
14 here, Mr. Block, to find out if it's different.
15 MR. BLOCK: All right. Let's call the judge.
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 (Thereupon, a phone call was placed to the
18 Honorable L. Haldane Taylor, and the following
19 telephonic proceedings were had:)
20 THE COURT: This is the judge's chambers.
21 MR. BLOCK: Yes. This is David Block and Keith
22 (sic) Sanders. We're here with a court reporter.
23 MR. SANDERS: Kevin Sanders.
24 MR. BLOCK: Kevin Sanders. We're here with a
25 court reporter. We're at Jennifer Herrington's
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1 deposition, somewhere between hour five and six.
2 Plaintiff seeks to depose Ms. Herrington about
3 the process by which she got a franchise agreement in
4 2009, this past January, and I was hoping that we
5 could move on because, even if they changed the
6 process three years later, it's just far afield from
7 where we need to be in this case.
8 THE COURT: Who is Ms. Herrington?
9 MR. BLOCK: Ms. Herrington is one of the
10 defendants. She was accused of interference with
11 contractual relations dating back to the '06
12 franchise.
13 THE COURT: Was she a member of the board?
14 MR. BLOCK: No.
15 MR. SANDERS: Your Honor, she -- this is Kevin
16 Sanders speaking -- she is actually a defendant that's
17 included in this lawsuit.
18 And this was my concern at the previous hearing,
19 that we were going to have to start making phone calls
20 to the Court when the Court allowed for Mr. Block to
21 allegedly restrict things to 2006, and one of the
22 reasons why I had submitted my proposed Order on this
23 particular matter, to avoid these types of conflicts.
24 Ms. Herrington is identifying e-mails back and
25 forth between her and Mary Sullivan; Mary Sullivan
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1 being the president of the Miss Florida Organization.
2 There are statements made within those e-mails that
3 I'm following up on; in particular, the statement made
4 by Ms. Sullivan was, "I also understand that you do
5 not want to stage a local, but if you should change
6 your mind at any time, please let me know."
7 I asked if she had changed her mind. She had
8 said yes. She had talked about being awarded a
9 franchise. I was inquiring as to the process of how
10 that was awarded, because it's different than the
11 process that has been testified to by other board
12 members in this particular thing. I'm just trying to
13 get to whether or not there might be a double standard
14 or if she's getting special preference or -- who
15 knows, Your Honor -- there might have even been a deal
16 made in this particular matter for her testimony.
17 I believe I should be allowed to inquire on that
18 particular matter, and --
19 THE COURT: The question -- what did she do? Why
20 is she a defendant in your case? What's the
21 allegation.
22 MR. BLOCK: Tortious interference with
23 contractual relations, Your Honor. The allegation is
24 that she, by improper means, interfered, thereby
25 depriving the Plaintiff of the 2006 franchise.
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1 THE COURT: Was she awarded the franchise?
2 MR. BLOCK: Not in 2006. She's been awarded a
3 franchise three years later, in 2009.
4 MR. SANDERS: Your Honor, that's not quite true.
5 She was awarded it at one point in time in 2006, then
6 it was taken away from her, and she was awarded a Miss
7 First Coast franchise, and the franchise was awarded
8 to Kevin Sanders and the North Florida Scholarship
9 Organization. Then that was taken away and then
10 awarded to Ruth Sidbury, who at one time was a
11 defendant in this particular case.
12 MR. BLOCK: She resigned on September 20th, 2006,
13 from the whole organization; and, therefore, since
14 September 20th, 2006, till the award of this
15 franchise, she's been, for all practical purposes,
16 dormant. She hasn't done anything.
17 THE COURT: Was this -- her franchise is the one
18 that you're seeking?
19 MR. BLOCK: The one that she was awarded?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. BLOCK: No.
22 MR. SANDERS: It's the process that we're looking
23 into, Your Honor, with how these are being awarded.
24 Again --
25 THE COURT: Well, the process can change. Yours
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1 was three years ago. The question is, what was the
2 process at that time and how was yours -- how were you
3 discriminated against, or whatever.
4 MR. SANDERS: And, Your Honor, that's, I guess,
5 my point. Mr. Block hasn't even allowed me to get to
6 those questions, to see if the process has changed.
7 If the process has changed, Mr. Block may be
8 correct. But if there's no knowledge of a change of a
9 process, or if there's no knowledge of a change of a
10 franchise agreement, then the process would be the
11 same, and I think my inquiry is relevant.
12 THE COURT: Not unless the instant matter was to
13 the effect that she was promised some franchise and
14 cooperating with them as to -- preventing you from
15 retaining your franchise. I think it's more relevant
16 that it pertains -- the question here pertains to the
17 time pertaining to you and what she -- if she had any
18 kind of agreement with North Florida or any of those
19 other members of the board.
20 MR. SANDERS: Well, Your Honor, the e-mail that
21 prompted this question was written to Ms. Herrington
22 on September 20th of 2006, which is within that time
23 frame.
24 THE COURT: Certainly.
25 MR. SANDERS: The e-mail specifically states, "if
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1 you change your mind, please let us know." And again,
2 that's the causal link back to 2006.
3 I don't know what the agreement may or may not
4 have been with regards to her being an awarded
5 franchise back in 2006 that now relates to 2009.
6 Again, I think I ought to be allowed to inquire with
7 regards to that.
8 THE COURT: I'll allow limited inquiries
9 pertaining to the e-mail and explanations and what
10 subsequently may have happened.
11 MR. SANDERS: Thank you, Your Honor.
12 MR. BLOCK: Well --
13 THE COURT: Good day, and don't be calling me
14 every minute. You-all need to work it out or --
15 MR. BLOCK: Let me understand the rule. I don't
16 mind if he asks, "Did someone buy your testimony?" and
17 all that, but comparing procedures three years later,
18 that's okay, the back and forth on that?
19 THE COURT: No. But he can follow up on that
20 particular e-mail, since it was at the time of his,
21 '06, and what may have been the basis for that e-mail
22 and the agreement that was understood at that
23 particular time.
24 MR. BLOCK: Absolutely. Anything in '06 and any
25 understandings at that time -- no issue.
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1 THE COURT: Have a good day. Thank you.
2 (Thereupon, the telephonic proceedings before the
3 Honorable L. Haldane Taylor were concluded.)
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q We'll go back to the e-mail.
7 What did Mary Sullivan mean when she said, "if
8 you should change your mind...please just let me know"?
9 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: I would gather that she meant
11 within, maybe, the next couple of days, next couple of
12 weeks, next couple of months.
13 BY MR. SANDERS:
14 Q So "any time," to you means two days or two
15 months?
16 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
18 BY MR. SANDERS:
19 Q And you eventually asked her for a franchise?
20 A Okay. I had heard that there was a possibility
21 that a franchise could be granted through the high school
22 ruling, under fair and festival, and I learned that because
23 I had actually asked someone who was on the judges list to
24 be one of my judges for my pageant. And they said, "You
25 know, you should think about franchising this."
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1 And I was like, "No, I'm not sure if I want to do
2 this," you know, or whatever, "I'm not sure if I'm ready to
3 go back," you know, or whatever.
4 But then, after giving it some thought and
5 speaking it over with my family, I decided that I would do
6 it, although I knew that my circumstances would be
7 different because my girls can't compete in swimsuit.
8 Q And who did you let know that you wanted the
9 franchise?
10 A I told Keith Williams.
11 Q And then what happened after you told Keith
12 Williams?
13 A I then -- he said I probably needed to, you know,
14 contact Mary, which I did.
15 Q And you contacted Mary, and what did Mary say
16 about the franchise?
17 A She said, "Yes, Jennifer, that is true; there is
18 a rule now where we can have fair, festival and high school
19 pageants; however, let me reiterate to you that you cannot
20 crown your person who wins that night with an official Miss
21 America crown or sash." So I did not.
22 Q But when you talked to Mary, did she say, "Go
23 ahead; you've got the franchise"?
24 A Let's see. My pageant was held on November the
25 15th --
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1 MR. BLOCK: Relevance, still, on this.
2 THE WITNESS: I know that I made an announcement
3 from the podium that there would be a possibility that
4 the young lady who won tonight would be able to
5 compete in the Miss Florida Pageant.
6 I did not submit a franchise agreement until the
7 latter part of November. It would have had to have
8 been after my pageant, because I had no crown or sash
9 to give to my new titleholder, which she had to order
10 all of that stuff for me.
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q So you made that announcement based on the
13 conversation with Mary Sullivan?
14 A I said that there would be a great chance, great
15 possibility that the winner of tonight's pageant would have
16 the opportunity to compete in the Miss Florida Pageant in
17 July of 2009, in St. Petersburg.
18 Q And again, that was based on your conversation
19 with Mary Sullivan?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Anybody else -- did Keith Williams tell you you
22 could have a pageant?
23 A No.
24 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
25 MR. SANDERS: That will be No. 6.
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1 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 was marked for
2 identification.)
3 Does anybody need a break?
4 THE WITNESS: I do.
5 (Brief recess.)
6 BY MR. SANDERS:
7 Q Let me show you a copy of an e-mail. Originally,
8 it was from JPH Angel to kevsand1@bellsouth-dot-net.
9 Again, just for the record, JPH Angel@aol-dot-com is your
10 e-mail address?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And kevsand1@bellsouth-dot-net, is that Kevin
13 Sanders e-mail address?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. Your original e-mail went out on October
16 17th, 2006, at 2:04 p.m., and was responded to on the same
17 date, October 17th, at 3:09 p.m. Let me ask you if you
18 recognize that e-mail.
19 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
20 It also was provided by your attorney, and it's
21 Bates stamped 00453.
22 A Yes, I recognize it.
23 Q Let's talk about your original e-mail, down at
24 the bottom. You say, "Kevin, I received this earlier
25 today. Did you call the Ferreiras? She has enclosed her
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1 number. You may want to give her a call."
2 My question is on the next statement that you
3 made: "I heard about you not being renewed. Bummer."
4 I think you testified earlier you heard from --
5 that with regards to Emily Martin.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Anybody else that you heard that from?
8 A No.
9 Q Okay. Your next statement says, "Maybe you
10 should have met with me when I offered. I could have shed
11 a little light on this whole pageant thing."
12 What are you talking about there?
13 A I believe that I tried to contact you on that
14 Monday, September the 18th. I even tried to call your
15 office. Cammie, I think, said you were busy; I should call
16 back in five minutes. And, when I tried, you didn't answer
17 the phone call or return my call.
18 I wanted to talk with you, one on one, just you
19 and I, and have you tell me what happened, what -- what
20 went on. And then I could have -- I wanted to let you know
21 that, considering what had happened and what you had
22 posted, I, personally, did not feel that they would renew
23 your franchise.
24 Q Well, you go on further and say, "Maybe you would
25 have realized who was telling the truth."
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1 What do you mean by that? What was the lie, and
2 what was the truth?
3 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure of what the lie would
5 have been, but you would have realized who was telling
6 the truth because I would have told you from the very
7 beginning that -- again, regarding what was posted on
8 the website -- that I did not feel that they would,
9 probably, renew your franchise.
10 BY MR. SANDERS:
11 Q So did you believe, then, that, when Mary
12 Sullivan told Kevin Sanders that he could have the
13 Jacksonville franchise, that that was a lie, and she didn't
14 mean it?
15 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I would not know. I was not -- I
17 was not, you know, a party in that conversation.
18 BY MR. SANDERS:
19 Q Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out,
20 though: What are you referring to?
21 "I could have helped shed a little light on the
22 whole pageant thing. Maybe you would have realized who was
23 telling the truth."
24 Here's your moment. Tell me what you were going
25 to say on that.
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1 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: All right. So you want me to tell
3 you what I would have told you on that day?
4 MR. SANDERS: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: The first thing I would have asked
6 you was, "What happened on that Saturday at your house
7 to prompt Cammie to contact me? Why didn't -- you
8 know, why did it happen or unfold the way that it
9 unfolded? Why didn't you -- why didn't you talk to
10 me? Why didn't you, personally, call me, yourself,
11 and say, 'Jennifer, we've got some issues; I need to
12 talk with you'?"
13 Kevin, you know, I would have met you anywhere.
14 We could have met in a mutual place, since you live on
15 the Northside, and I lived in Orange Park at that
16 time.
17 I wanted to know what happened to make Cammie
18 give me that phone call on that Wednesday, or --
19 excuse me -- Saturday morning. I wanted to know what
20 happened. And then I wanted to tell you that -- to
21 take the year off, back off, take some time, spend
22 some time with Cammie and Ciara, focus on your family.
23 I wanted -- I just -- I wanted to offer my help to
24 you, my advice, not only as a former executive
25 director with you, but as your friend.
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1 BY MR. SANDERS:
2 Q And that's what this e-mail means?
3 A That's what this e-mail means. I wanted to talk
4 to you, one on one. I wanted it to be just me and you,
5 where you could tell me what happened. I wanted someone to
6 give me an explanation, because you wouldn't talk to me,
7 and all I heard from was Cammie. So I was completely --
8 just flabbergasted by that phone call on that Saturday.
9 Can you just imagine getting a phone call like
10 that on a Saturday morning in your house? I'm running
11 around doing laundry, I'm just having a normal Saturday,
12 and I find out that the people that I worked for, helped
13 raise their daughter, produced a pageant, produced Miss
14 Florida's and Miss Outstanding Teen's, and she's quitting;
15 she's just quitting; no heads up on it, no nothing.
16 I mean, the next day we're having the girls
17 turning in the paperwork, Cammie had set it all up, and
18 it's over with, done. And I wanted to hear it out of your
19 mouth. I wanted you to tell me what happened on that day,
20 and you wouldn't ever talk to me.
21 Q So, when you say, "I could have shed a little
22 light on the whole pageant thing," that meant you were
23 going to ask Kevin Sanders a bunch of questions?
24 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; getting
25 argumentative.
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1 MR. SANDERS: I'm just asking her the question.
2 MR. BLOCK: Your tone is getting argumentative.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I pretty -- pretty much
4 could have said to you, "Kevin, please, please just
5 let it go; please just let it go; take the year off."
6 That's what I wanted to do.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q And when you say, "maybe you would have realized
9 who was telling the truth," the truth that you were telling
10 me was all the questions that you were going to ask me?
11 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
12 THE WITNESS: The question was -- I wanted you to
13 know what, with there being no franchise agreement,
14 the Miss Jacksonville Pageant was open to anyone who
15 wanted to send in a franchise agreement. Ruth
16 Sidbury, myself, Barbara Whitehead could have put in a
17 franchise agreement for it; anybody could have. And
18 so I wanted you to know that -- maybe you should have
19 realized who was telling you the truth. I wanted to
20 say to you, "Kevin, I really, wholeheartedly
21 believe -- I don't think they're going to renew the
22 franchise agreement due to what you posted."
23 BY MR. SANDERS:
24 Q And that's your final answer on that?
25 MR. BLOCK: Objection.
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q And then my response to you was, "Tell me
4 what...you want"; is that correct?
5 A "Tell me whatever you want."
6 MR. SANDERS: That will be No. 7.
7 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. SANDERS:
10 Q Again, I'm going to show you an e-mail that went
11 back and forth between JPH Angel and kevsand1@bellsouth,
12 which you've identified those parties. It's Bates stamped
13 00455. It is originally a response e-mail to the one that
14 we just identified. It was sent out on Tuesday, October
15 17, 2006, at 3:16 p.m., and then responded to on October
16 17th, at 4:07 p.m.
17 Let me see if you recognize that e-mail.
18 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
19 A I recognize it.
20 Q Now, the lower portion of that says, "Original
21 Message"; does it not?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that's from you to kevsand1?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, I heard your explanation to the previous
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1 e-mail. This is your response: "It is not just a matter
2 of telling you things; you need to see proof of what I had
3 been telling you from the beginning. It would take me all
4 day to write everything down, I know; and, frankly, I do
5 not have the time. I am going out of town early in the
6 morning and will not return until Sunday night. I wish you
7 had been interested before. Now it is too late. We both
8 lost something very special to us, and it could have been
9 prevented."
10 That's your statement?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You typed that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. Did you mention anything in that about the
15 questions that you had for me?
16 A When you just read it, did you see any of those
17 questions?
18 Q No.
19 A Okay, then.
20 Q So there's nothing in there about any questions?
21 A No.
22 Q You're indicating that it's not just a matter of
23 telling things, but you had some kind of proof.
24 What proof are you referring to?
25 A The only proof that I had, Kevin, were e-mails
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1 that had come back and forth between myself and Mary, that
2 you have already seen, that we've already gone over.
3 That's all I had. I had nothing else. I'd not spoken to
4 anyone; I'd not done anything. That's all I had. And you
5 have everything that I had.
6 Q So you're just talking about a couple of e-mails?
7 A That's it.
8 Q Then why do you say, in the next paragraph, "It
9 would take me all day to write everything down"?
10 A It got your attention, didn't it? Obviously, it
11 did.
12 I wanted to talk to you. I wanted to speak with
13 you. And I -- I didn't know how any other -- you wouldn't
14 return my phone calls. You wouldn't do anything. I know
15 you have caller ID on your phone at work; so I knew, if
16 you'd seen my phone number, you weren't going to answer my
17 phone calls.
18 Q When you say, "I wish you'd be interested in this
19 before; now it's too late," what was too late? What would
20 you have been able to provide that would have prevented
21 Mary Sullivan from not awarding the pageant?
22 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
23 You can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: It wouldn't have been anything I
25 would have provided. I would have just said, "Kevin,
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1 please let it go. Just let it go this year, please.
2 For the sake of you and Cammie and Ciara, this time
3 just let it go."
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q So is it your testimony today, then, that this
6 e-mail is just a fiction?
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
8 And now you're getting argumentative.
9 BY MR. SANDERS:
10 Q You had really nothing to say, even though you
11 said you did.
12 A I had --
13 Q You had no proof that you -- is what you're
14 saying today, and you didn't have anything that would take
15 you all day to write down; is that what you're saying, that
16 this was a fiction?
17 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; characterization;
18 argumentative.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay. The proof would have been
20 the e-mails that I had from Mary, that you have all of
21 them. Take me -- it would take me all day to write
22 down everything that I know. I'm not going to sit
23 there on my computer and write down -- as you can see,
24 this was a Tuesday, 4:07. I had pretty much been,
25 again, all day with my dad. Tuesdays were days I was
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1 with my dad. There's no way -- I'm sure I was
2 probably stressed beyond belief and exhausted.
3 There's no way I would have sat and done all of that.
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q Now, remember, this is October 17th.
6 A Right. That's what I'm saying. I went with my
7 dad every Tuesday.
8 MR. SANDERS: And that will be No. 8.
9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q Let me show you another e-mail. It's Bates
13 stamped 000457. Again, it's an original e-mail from JPH
14 Angel to kevsand1, Tuesday, October 17th, 2006, at 5:14
15 p.m., responded to on October 17th, 2006, at 5:53 p.m.
16 I'll ask you if you recognize that.
17 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
18 A I recognize it.
19 Q And let me read the original message that you
20 sent: "It is not just a matter of telling you things. You
21 need to see proof of what I had been telling you from the
22 beginning. It would take..."
23 I'm sorry. Am I reading the right one?
24 A You're reading the previous one.
25 Q I'm reading the one before that. I'm sorry.
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1 It says, "You suggested what originally? I'm
2 confused. Kevin, I am not kidding; there is way too much
3 for me to put in an e-mail; besides, how informal is that?
4 Also, what do you mean, 'This is far from being over'?
5 Ruth has the pageant. Trust me, she has already started
6 her plans. She had the phone wires hot on Saturday."
7 Did you write that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. What did you mean when you repeated,
10 similarly to the other e-mails, that there was way too much
11 to put into an e-mail?
12 A Again, it would have been the e-mail responses I
13 got back from Mary.
14 Q And when you said that Ruth had already started
15 her plans and had the phone wires hot on Saturday, what did
16 you mean by that? How did you know?
17 A Well, again, Emily called me to let me know that
18 Ruth had been awarded the Miss Jacksonville Pageant, and
19 that Emily was now going to be helping Ruth with her
20 pageant. And I'm assuming she already started plans. I
21 believe she held the pageant that year in December. I
22 could be wrong, but --
23 Q So Emily, who was a former board member of the
24 North Florida Scholarship Organization, was going to be
25 working with Ruth for the Miss Jacksonville franchise?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And she was contacting you to let you know that?
3 A To let me know that Ruth had the pageant?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Yes. We'd already stated that previously, that
6 she's the one that called me to tell me Ruth had the
7 pageant.
8 Q Well, was she going to be working for Ruth at
9 that point in time?
10 A Emily and her parents used to help Ruth every
11 year, anyway. Her parents have always done the tickets,
12 and Emily has always run her backstage.
13 Q Now, did you assist with the Miss Jacksonville
14 Pageant at any point?
15 A No.
16 Q You've never --
17 A Under Ruth's direction?
18 Q Yes.
19 A No.
20 Q You've never been backstage during any of Ruth's
21 pageants?
22 A Absolutely not.
23 Q So, if somebody said that they saw you backstage,
24 and you and Emily were assisting people at Ruth's pageants,
25 that would be a lie?
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1 A Yes, it would.
2 MR. SANDERS: Okay. That will be No. 9.
3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 9 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q Let me show you a response from JPH Angel to
7 kevsand1, on Tuesday, October 17, 2006, at 7:13 p.m. It's
8 Bates stamped 000458. I'll ask you if you recognize that.
9 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Did you type that?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q It's a much longer e-mail than the other one, so
14 we're just going to take it a little bit at a time.
15 Is this in response to the previous e-mail, then,
16 for a further explanation?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Okay. You indicate, "I learned this past
19 Saturday evening about what happened to you at the
20 franchise meeting." You've already explained that.
21 Your next statement is, "I have to tell you, I am
22 not at all surprised and am not usually the type of person
23 to say this to someone, but 'I told you so.'"
24 What did you say that you could make that quote
25 that "I told you so"?
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1 A That would again go back to those prior e-mails,
2 where I'd said to you I wanted to meet with you because I
3 felt like you were not going to be getting the pageant
4 back.
5 Q I'm not trying to argue with you; but, usually, I
6 understand, when somebody says, "I told you so," it's
7 because they told you something, and then it later turned
8 out to be true, but they didn't believe you.
9 Are you saying that "I told you so" strictly
10 refers back to all these e-mails, where you were asking for
11 a meeting?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. Well, then your next statement says, "I
14 told you that afternoon in your office, but you chose to
15 turn the other cheek and contact Mary and Ray and pursue
16 this totally on your own."
17 Does that refresh your recollection that you may
18 have said something besides the e-mails?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And what is it that you recall saying to Kevin
21 Sanders, in his office, that leads you to be able to say,
22 "I told you so"?
23 A Going back, on that day -- you didn't say a whole
24 lot on that day.
25 I remember turning around in the chair and
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1 looking at you and saying, "I think that the Miss Florida
2 Pageant is concerned because you have not turned in a
3 resignation letter, that they feel that that cancellation
4 thing on the website -- they assumed that was a
5 cancellation letter or resignation letter, but they would
6 have liked to have heard from you," and that I felt like
7 that they would probably not be awarding you the pageant
8 back.
9 Q Now, of course, that conversation took place
10 prior to the conversation with Ray and Mary, and them
11 awarding the franchise to Kevin Sanders and the North
12 Florida Scholarship Organization; isn't that correct?
13 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; characterization.
14 THE WITNESS: I spoke to Mary and Ray that
15 morning, before I came to your office at 1:00 p.m.
16 BY MR. SANDERS:
17 Q And again, we've gone through the e-mails -- I
18 can go through them again -- that were dated back on those
19 original dates, but let's just go through, I guess, without
20 repeating ourselves much.
21 You came to pick up boxes; correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q The boxes that were allegedly in the garbage;
24 correct?
25 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
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1 THE WITNESS: No. She never stated there were
2 boxes in the garbage. She stated there was paperwork
3 and headshots.
4 MR. SANDERS: Thank you for that clarification.
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q But you picked all that stuff up on that day; is
7 that correct?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q Okay. And we've already gone through some other
10 e-mails, and you've already looked at some things where the
11 franchise was given by Mary to Kevin Sanders, either that
12 same day or the very next day; have you not?
13 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q Okay. So this e-mail is a month later. You had
17 known that the franchise had been awarded to Kevin Sanders,
18 that they were offering you Miss First Coast. You had
19 resigned as business manager, and decided not to turn in a
20 franchise agreement; is that correct?
21 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MR. SANDERS:
24 Q Okay. So why are you saying "I told you so" at
25 this point, a month later, when you know that the franchise
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1 had been awarded to Kevin Sanders and the North Florida
2 Scholarship Organization?
3 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: I feel that it was tentatively
5 awarded to you by Mary, but until -- I'm assuming the
6 executive board approves the franchises; it's not a
7 done deal until they sign off on that agreement.
8 BY MR. SANDERS:
9 Q So, is the "I told you so" that Mary was just
10 leading Kevin Sanders on, and the North Florida Scholarship
11 Organization -- that they had the franchise, and you knew,
12 from talking to board members or somebody else, that they
13 weren't going to award it?
14 A I did not know they were not going to give you
15 the pageant back on October the 14th -- I guess is when
16 that was. I did not know. I had not spoken to a board
17 member from the day that I turned in my phone and my
18 business cards.
19 Q And again, I'm looking at your e-mails that we
20 have here. On this date, October 17th, you basically said:
21 You should have met with me when I offered. I could have
22 shed some light on this whole pageant thing. Maybe you now
23 realize who was telling the truth. You need to see the
24 proof of what I've been telling you from the beginning.
25 Of all these e-mails that you sent, you don't
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1 have any other knowledge of what was going on behind the
2 scenes?
3 A No, sir, I do not.
4 Q Even though multiple e-mails would suggest
5 differently?
6 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
8 BY MR. SANDERS:
9 Q Then your next statement says, "Can you now
10 understand what my astonishment was like when I received
11 your letter in the mail? I was completely confused."
12 Are you talking about the letter where you were
13 to bring the boxes of material back?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Why were you astonished when you received that
16 letter to return the boxes of material?
17 A I don't have the letter in front of me, unless
18 you happen to have a copy of it with you. I cannot
19 remember what exactly my wording was in that particular
20 letter, but I was just confused and shocked that you were
21 asking me back for those boxes.
22 Q And that's my question, though: Why were you
23 confused and shocked and, according your e-mail,
24 astonished? What did you know that Kevin Sanders didn't
25 know?
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1 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: Because, at that time, on that
3 Monday, the 18th, in your office, I was still acting
4 as executive director of Miss Jacksonville.
5 BY MR. SANDERS:
6 Q And what were you under the assumption of, then,
7 from either -- I think you mentioned earlier a telephone
8 conference with Mary and Ray that morning, before you came
9 over. I'm just trying to find the information that you
10 were under the belief of that led you to be astonished and
11 amazed.
12 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: Again, I would -- I would really
14 like to go back and read that letter.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q Well, again, I don't know that I brought that
17 letter with me, but that letter literally just said: Bring
18 the stuff back; Kevin Sanders and the North Florida
19 Scholarship Organization will continue to do the pageant.
20 Did it say something more than that?
21 A Okay. I think -- I think it was because, maybe,
22 I did not know you had been, you know, maybe, possibly
23 taking it over again. Maybe that's what I meant by that.
24 Q Maybe?
25 A I don't know.
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1 Q Now, looking down where you've bolded "Kevin" --
2 I think it's one, two, three, four --
3 A I see it.
4 Q It says, "I want to know why you did this to me."
5 What did Kevin do to you?
6 A Well, let's see. The posting on the website,
7 without contacting me about it.
8 Q That was a direct affront to you, then, even
9 though you were business manager and not associated with
10 the pageant?
11 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, and cutting off
12 her answer.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. When Mary said, "Jennifer,
14 we'd like you to be business manager, but not be an
15 executive director; you can still be on their board
16 and volunteer, do everything you want to do with that
17 pageant," that would have let me remain on your board.
18 I'm assuming I would have attended board meetings
19 whenever you-all had them, because -- not only that;
20 my husband was also tabulator for the pageant, so,
21 generally, we came together. Okay?
22 So I wanted to know why you wouldn't talk to me,
23 and all the association I had to have on Saturday had
24 to be with Cammie. And even on Sunday morning, she
25 was the one that called me at eight o'clock on Sunday
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1 morning, telling me not to come to your house. I
2 wanted to know why you couldn't call me.
3 Why didn't you pick up the phone and call me, or
4 call me, you know, the day prior and say, "Jennifer,
5 you know, we've had some issues this morning in the
6 house; let me tell you what's going on. Do you think
7 at this time you and Jeff, you know, might kind of
8 really step in and do..."? But, no, you chose to go
9 the opposite way with it and cancel it and put out
10 there what you put on the website.
11 That's why I wanted to know why you did it, and
12 you wouldn't tell me; you wouldn't speak with me.
13 BY MR. SANDERS:
14 Q So, when you say, "I want to know why you did
15 this to me," you're talking about all the other stuff with
16 the website?
17 A The website is -- is a definite huge thing,
18 because you're the one that went out there and posted it on
19 the 16th. And canceling it, I -- for the life of me, I
20 just could not understand why you would not tell me.
21 I had recently stepped down as executive
22 director, from you and Cammie.
23 Q Well, let's follow up with that. Your next
24 statement is, "I wanted to keep that pageant going so
25 badly. It had become such a part of me. I love those
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1 girls so much, and..." I bond "...and the bond that I
2 create with them was shattered in a moment."
3 Again, you were not an executive director; at
4 best, you're saying that you were a volunteer; you were not
5 associated with the pageant, based on your previous
6 testimony that Mary Sullivan told you you could not be, so
7 what are you talking about when you said, "I wanted to keep
8 the pageant going so badly..."?
9 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: Because I wanted to come in as
11 executive director and keep it going.
12 Kevin, you and I both know, when it came to the
13 contestants, I was the one that dealt mainly with
14 them. Cammie handled all the paperwork; the website
15 was her baby; she handled all the paperwork that had
16 to be turned in to Miss Florida; she ran the
17 choreography. But when it came to the time with the
18 girls, that's what I did best.
19 And I really kind of felt like that, even though
20 I was a pageant volunteer with them, I kind of felt
21 like you-all would have still kept me in that same
22 loop; because, to be quite honest with you, I don't
23 remember ever hardly seeing Betty Sullivan. Teri
24 Sullivan (sic) was only there for choreography, maybe
25 the night of the pageant, maybe to help backstage.
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1 Emily was there a lot. Okay? And Hansford ran
2 security for us. So the bulk of that pageant
3 consisted around the three of us. We were the ones
4 that took the girls down to the pageant orientation
5 weekend; we made the appearances with the girls
6 throughout the year.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q But you had resigned to take on the business
9 manager job?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Even though the pageant meant so much to you, and
12 the contact with all the girls meant so much to you?
13 A Once again, Mary and I had that stipulation.
14 I told her, I said, "Mary, this is going to be
15 very hard for me to do."
16 She said, "Jennifer, I am not about to take that
17 away from you. You just cannot have the title of
18 co-executive director."
19 I explained this to you in a dinner between me
20 and you and Cammie and Jeff at the Chart House. We had
21 dinner on that night, when I told you of my decision.
22 Q And that was when you resigned; was it not?
23 A To you and Cammie, as co-executive director.
24 Q Let's keep reading. It says, "Everyone still
25 asks me..." and, of course, this is on October 17th,
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1 2006 -- "Everyone still asks me and begs me to have my own
2 pageant, including the board..."
3 When you say "including the board," who are you
4 talking about?
5 A That would probably be Keith, Keith Williams.
6 Q So it just meant one board member?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. You used the term "they," after you just
9 said that it meant one board member: "They just told me
10 yesterday to submit my paperwork, and I do still heavily
11 consider it. I feel like I have so much to offer and give
12 of myself. I would have even had a board to rally around
13 me, but we soon realized that the financial backing was not
14 there."
15 Is that what you said?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. So are you blaming Kevin Sanders for your
18 lack of ability to have the Miss Jacksonville Pageant?
19 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 BY MR. SANDERS:
22 Q Let's keep reading, then.
23 You say, "I guess you can say it's really over
24 for both of us. You know, I have gone over that
25 conversation we had in your office that day a million times
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1 in my head, and the one thing that sticks out the most was
2 Cammie saying three times, 'We have to make sure Ruth does
3 not get this pageant.' Funny, isn't it? We in the pageant
4 business say, 'And the winner is...' and, in this case,
5 it's Ruth Sidbury."
6 So are you mad, when you say, "Kevin, I want to
7 know why you did this to me," that Ruth Sidbury got the
8 pageant?
9 A No.
10 Q So you're only mad about -- from your previous
11 testimony -- what was posted on the website?
12 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, and
13 characterization.
14 THE WITNESS: At this point, Kevin, it did not
15 matter to me that Ruth got the pageant.
16 BY MR. SANDERS:
17 Q And didn't your husband Jeff actually judge one
18 of the pageants for Ruth here, just recently?
19 A Yes, he did.
20 Q Weren't you supporting one of the contestants in
21 that pageant?
22 A No, I was not.
23 Q Now, you go on further in this e-mail, and you
24 say, I heard -- "I am sure you heard that I resigned from
25 business manager. Do you want to know the reason why?" --
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1 with a question mark -- "or maybe you could care less; but,
2 for the record -- and only Jeff and Emily and now you know
3 the...reason -- I could not personally be a part of a board
4 that told me one thing and then told you something
5 completely different."
6 Are those your words?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is it that the board told you, on the one
9 thing, and told Kevin Sanders differently?
10 A That I could be executive director of the pageant
11 and that, quite possibly, you could also be executive
12 director of the pageant. I was very confused why that had
13 been stated. I did not -- I felt like, when Mary told me
14 on that day that it would be me -- I guess I didn't realize
15 it would still be open to anybody.
16 Q So, when you say "the board" told you that, are
17 you saying Mary Sullivan told you that, or were there
18 actual board members involved in that?
19 A Mary Sullivan.
20 Q So, when you say "I could not personally be a
21 part of a board that told me one thing," you really meant
22 that "I couldn't be a part of an organization where Mary
23 Sullivan told me one thing and told you something
24 different"?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Do you know why you used the term "board" in that
2 particular e-mail?
3 A When I think of Mary, I guess I just think of the
4 whole board. It was just my thinking.
5 Q You go on further to say, "You, above all people,
6 know how I feel about pageants and crowns, so this was the
7 hardest thing I have ever done, but I decided to stick to
8 my guns. I felt as if someone ripped my heart out of my
9 chest and stomped all over it," but "no one will ever know
10 what that feels like. I still cry every day."
11 You wrote those words?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, when you say that you felt like somebody had
14 ripped your heart out, was that what Kevin Sanders did, or
15 was that what Mary Sullivan did?
16 A I believe that would be you.
17 Q Okay. And why Kevin Sanders?
18 A Because of the way that you handled everything.
19 Q Well, and again, the only thing I've heard was
20 about the e-mail, the telephone conversation, and the other
21 matter which I'm just having a hard time remembering what
22 it was.
23 What else are you saying, "everything that you
24 did"?
25 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
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1 THE WITNESS: Once again, I am the one that heard
2 Cammie on the other end of that phone that morning. I
3 knew that she was upset and distressed. I was very
4 concerned about her. At one point, I even heard you
5 yelling back at her. I think she asked you a
6 question, and you yelled back at her. She stated you
7 were going to sell the house. I was with you guys
8 when you picked out that house. I knew how much it
9 meant to both of you. Giving up the pageant the way
10 that you did, and then -- I guess I would say that
11 Monday afternoon in your office.
12 BY MR. SANDERS:
13 Q So all those things ripped out your heart, and
14 you blamed Kevin Sanders for you not getting the Miss
15 Jacksonville Pageant?
16 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, and
17 characterization.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. You keep saying "me" getting
19 the Miss Jacksonville Pageant.
20 No one said I couldn't have it. I just didn't
21 apply for it. No one ever said to me I could not have
22 the pageant. I just did not submit a franchise
23 agreement.
24 BY MR. SANDERS:
25 Q Well, the e-mail that you identified that Mary
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1 Sullivan had sent you, which basically said, "You and I had
2 discussed that you could have Miss First Coast and Kevin
3 Sanders could have Miss Jacksonville" --
4 A But I had never told Mary which title I was going
5 to be taking; because, at that time, I knew that I needed
6 to form my own corporation, aside from the NFSO. I had
7 toyed around with taking Miss Duval County. I was not sure
8 what title I was going to take. I had not told Mary that
9 it would be the title of Miss Jacksonville or Miss First
10 Coast.
11 Q So, when you're writing in this e-mail about Ruth
12 getting the pageant, you were talking about Miss First
13 Coast, not Miss Jacksonville?
14 A No; I would have meant Miss Jacksonville.
15 I don't remember Miss First Coast being out there
16 a whole lot, to be honest with you. Because I told Mary I
17 didn't even know if I would have a stacked pageant. I felt
18 like, if I had one -- I don't even know if I even told her
19 I would have a teen pageant.
20 Q Well, now, you identified in your resignation
21 letter -- or e-mail that we've already got in place -- you
22 mentioned, "I was out on the website...I saw that I'm
23 listed under First Coast...I see that Kevin is listed under
24 Jacksonville."
25 Isn't that what you wrote?
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1 A Yes, but --
2 Q So you didn't indicate to Mary Sullivan at all
3 that you were planning on taking "First Coast"?
4 A I was not sure which title I was going to take.
5 Q Now, the very next paragraph, you say, "Let me
6 know any time you want some good reading. I have some
7 e-mails I think you might like to see. Once again, these
8 are the same ones offered to you before, and you did not
9 want to meet with me."
10 Again, which e-mails are those?
11 A They're all right here. You've seen them. You
12 have everything that I have.
13 Q Now, you're talking only about the e-mails
14 between you and Mary Sullivan?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you have any other e-mails between you and
17 Keith Williams?
18 A No.
19 Q Okay. Any e-mails between you and Rob Loy?
20 A No.
21 Q You and -- any e-mails with Richard Walker?
22 A No.
23 Q You and -- any e-mails with Kitty Potapow?
24 A No.
25 Q And you're dealing, the whole time, with Mary
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1 Sullivan?
2 A Yes.
3 You didn't read the last part.
4 MR. BLOCK: He doesn't have to read or not read
5 anything.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 MR. BLOCK: He can ask whatever he wants.
8 MR. SANDERS: I think that's No. 10.
9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 10 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 BY MR. SANDERS:
12 Q Let me show you another e-mail. Again, this is
13 in the chain of e-mails that occurred on Tuesday, October
14 17th, 2006. This one is from JPH Angel to kevsand1, at
15 approximately 9:18 p.m. I'll ask you if you recognize that
16 one.
17 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
18 A Yes, I do recognize it.
19 Q Did you type that one?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Are those your words?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Just looking down one sentence, it says, "The one
24 thing..." Do you see that?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Okay. You typed, "The one thing that I think you
2 need to know is that everything that took place in your
3 office on that Monday was what I was instructed to do."
4 First, let me ask you, what Monday are you
5 talking about?
6 A Monday, September the 18th.
7 Q And was that when you came to pick up the boxes
8 of stuff?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And who instructed you to pick up the
11 boxes of stuff?
12 A I was actually told by Cammie. She spoke with
13 you, and you both agreed that Monday would be a good time
14 to come; that that would give you-all some time, I guess,
15 Sunday and maybe part of Monday morning to discuss what was
16 going to happen.
17 I told Mary Sullivan that I was going to go over
18 to your office with -- for the meeting at one o'clock, to
19 pick up the boxes.
20 Q So, when you're saying that you were instructed
21 to do what you did on that Monday, you're talking about
22 instructions made by Cammie Sanders?
23 A Yes; she said I could come pick everything up,
24 because I was supposed to come on Sunday morning, September
25 the 17th. But she told me, when she called at eight
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1 o'clock, that I could not come. She told me I could pick
2 up all the boxes of paperwork on Monday from your office,
3 at one o'clock.
4 Q Well, you make the statement right after that and
5 say, "I had been advised of so much that weekend...my head
6 was literally spinning."
7 You had that many conversations with Cammie about
8 picking up the boxes on Monday?
9 A No.
10 Q Who did you have conversations with?
11 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, to the prior one.
12 You can answer the current one.
13 THE WITNESS: That would have been from Mary
14 telling me that I needed to be able to find out what
15 contestants that I had that would be able to
16 participate in the pageant that I was going to try to
17 put on. I also was told I needed to form a
18 corporation. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that
19 took place that weekend. I needed to get a franchise
20 agreement submitted.
21 BY MR. SANDERS:
22 Q Then you go on to say, "As you know, I resigned
23 from business manager for a reason..." and then you put
24 dot, dot, dot "...and that was, I felt like I had been let
25 down."
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1 Who let you down?
2 A I guess I would have to say, when I learned that
3 the pageant could be open to anyone and not just,
4 necessarily, myself -- that anyone could apply for it --
5 that's when I felt like I had been let down.
6 Q Well, who told you that you had the pageant and
7 that it wasn't open to everybody else?
8 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: On that Saturday, when Mary told me
10 that I could step in as acting executive director, I
11 took it on that assumption.
12 BY MR. SANDERS:
13 Q And based on that assumption, you had meetings,
14 you went looking for --
15 A Venues.
16 Q -- venues and stuff like that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now, you go on to say, "I had people telling me
19 one thing, and then you -- your letter to me -- telling me
20 another. It was a place I did not feel comfortable in."
21 What was it that people -- that's your term --
22 people were telling you and that was contradictory of what
23 I was telling you, based on this e-mail?
24 A "People" would have been Mary Sullivan, and then
25 you, from your letter, telling me that I needed to return
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1 all of the boxes and that you were still going to be the
2 director of the pageant.
3 Q And so, when you said you felt uncomfortable, was
4 that because Mary Sullivan had promised you, if you picked
5 up the boxes, that you were going to be running the
6 pageant?
7 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe it was worded
9 that way.
10 BY MR. SANDERS:
11 Q How was it worded?
12 A Kevin, she told me on Saturday that I could step
13 in as the executive director of the pageant. She didn't
14 say it was on the contingency of me picking up the boxes.
15 Q Did she say it was contingent on anything?
16 A No.
17 Q You go on to say, "I now find my life empty. I
18 am not part of any pageant and have no Miss Florida to take
19 care of. For what it's worth, I want you to know I'm
20 sorry."
21 What were you saying "I'm sorry" for?
22 A That everything that we had worked so hard on had
23 ended this way.
24 MR. SANDERS: I don't know if I mentioned that,
25 but this is Bates stamped 000459.
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1 This will be No. 11.
2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q Next are e-mails exchanged -- the original e-mail
6 is from JPH Angel to kevsand1@bellsouth, on Wednesday,
7 September 20th, 2006. Again, a continuation of the
8 previous e-mails. This is Bates stamped 0005 -- excuse
9 me -- 000450. And then the response -- and that was sent
10 at 2:34 p.m., and the response sent on September 21st,
11 2006, at 5:29 p.m. I'll ask you if you'll look at that,
12 and if you recognize that e-mail.
13 (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.)
14 A I do recognize it.
15 Q Again -- let me take that back. This is not a
16 continuation of the e-mail from October 17th. These are
17 actually dated September 20th and September 21st; is that
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Your original letter says: I received your
21 letter today in the mail, and I have to tell you I was a
22 little confused to read what you stated.
23 Were you talking about the letter where you were
24 advised to return the pageant material for the Miss
25 Jacksonville Pageant?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q You indicate further, "I absolutely have no
3 problem with returning the items that you claim were taken
4 under false pretenses; however, I would like to do so with
5 you and I meeting in a mutual place. I feel that there are
6 some things that need to be discussed and several things
7 left unsaid."
8 What were you talking about that needed to be
9 discussed and that was left unsaid?
10 A Once again, I wanted to know what happened on
11 that Saturday, in your house, and what prompted you to do
12 what you did, by the posting on the website on that
13 Saturday night; and also, on Monday, when we were there in
14 your office -- everything that happened then.
15 Q What happened on Monday, at the office?
16 A Well, the discussion with -- with Cammie, with
17 her saying that she didn't want Ruth to have the pageant
18 back; me telling you that I did not feel like the board was
19 going to give you the pageant back, and that they would
20 like to have a resignation letter from you. I believe, at
21 that time, you picked up Ciara and walked up the stairs.
22 Q Who told you to get a resignation letter?
23 A Mary did not say for me to get one. She said it
24 would be nice if you would send one, and she wanted me to
25 tell you that. She didn't say for me to say to you,
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1 "Kevin, please give me a resignation letter."
2 Q Then, what did you say to Kevin Sanders about a
3 resignation letter?
4 A I turned to you, and I said, "Kevin, I think it
5 would be nice, considering what has happened, if you sent a
6 resignation letter to Mary Sullivan."
7 Q And you can answer this question, if you know --
8 well, let me clarify: It was Mary Sullivan who suggested
9 the resignation letter; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q That's not something you made up?
12 A No.
13 Q Could that have been -- I guess, in one of your
14 e-mails that you referenced, on October 17th, could that
15 have been one of the things where you said that "I was
16 instructed to do things by Mary Sullivan"?
17 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, and
18 characterization.
19 THE WITNESS: I would guess so.
20 BY MR. SANDERS:
21 Q Any other instructions from Mary Sullivan, other
22 than requesting a resignation letter?
23 A No.
24 MR. SANDERS: Now then -- I don't think I'm going
25 to ask that question.
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1 That will be No. 12.
2 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 12 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q Now, you didn't bring any documents with you
6 today?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q And you're saying all the documents that you had
9 in your possession were produced to your attorneys?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Other than that one phone call you talked about,
12 with Keith Williams, did you have any other telephone calls
13 with Keith Williams about the Miss Jacksonville Pageant?
14 A No.
15 Q Other than your attorney, have you discussed any
16 of the issues regarding this lawsuit at any time?
17 MR. BLOCK: Do you want to include her husband?
18 MR. SANDERS: Sure.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, because he has to know why
20 I'm taking off from work.
21 BY MR. SANDERS:
22 Q So you only -- since 2006 -- only discussed this
23 lawsuit with your attorneys and your husband?
24 A No; my mom, my in-laws.
25 I don't talk about it on a daily basis.
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1 Q So your testimony is, other than your attorneys,
2 your husband, and your mom, you haven't spoken with anybody
3 else, other than what you've formerly testified to here
4 today and at the previous deposition?
5 A At this point, I can't really recall.
6 Q So, you may have; you just don't recall?
7 A Right.
8 Q What, if anything, do you know about a posting on
9 the message boards, VoyForums and AmazingForums?
10 MR. BLOCK: Objection; asked and answered.
11 THE WITNESS: Do I need to answer?
12 MR. BLOCK: Yeah, you can answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I know that there were things
14 posted out on the message boards.
15 BY MR. SANDERS:
16 Q Do you know who posted them? Did you talk with
17 anybody?
18 A No.
19 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; and asked and
20 answered.
21 BY MR. SANDERS:
22 Q If you only spoke with Mary Sullivan about this,
23 and a brief conversation, which you've testified to, with
24 Keith Williams, how would have any information been
25 disseminated about the pageant --
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1 MR. BLOCK: Objection.
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q -- or Kevin Sanders or Cammie Sanders over the
4 message boards, unless it came from you or from Mary
5 Sullivan?
6 MR. BLOCK: Objection to form; characterization;
7 asked and answered.
8 She went through at length on the message boards;
9 she went through and talked to a bunch of pageant
10 contestants in the prior deposition -- in the prior
11 incarnation. She testified about everyone she talked
12 to about that web posting, about how other people knew
13 about that kind of stuff, and you know that, Kevin.
14 Stop. You know that. Don't start characterizing
15 this. It's testimony that she gave, and you asked.
16 MR. SANDERS: And it's also her testimony here
17 today that she hadn't spoken with anybody about any of
18 this except for her mom, her attorney --
19 MR. BLOCK: "This" was this lawsuit --
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
21 MR. BLOCK: -- not that, the message boards. She
22 testified she spoke to a bunch of people about the
23 posting on your website. She spoke to lots of people
24 about that.
25 MR. SANDERS: Well, let me rephrase my last
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1 question, then.
2 BY MR. SANDERS:
3 Q Who have you spoken with, other than people
4 you've already testified to -- your attorney and your mom
5 and your husband -- about any of the facts relating to any
6 of the situations involving the Miss Jacksonville Pageant,
7 this lawsuit, Kevin Sanders or Cammie Sanders?
8 MR. BLOCK: Other than what she's already
9 testified to throughout this entire deposition, all
10 the people she's identified already?
11 MR. SANDERS: I'll let her stand on what she said
12 about --
13 MR. BLOCK: That's fine; as long as it includes
14 all those other people.
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 BY MR. SANDERS:
17 Q No one besides the ones that Mr. Block has read
18 into the record?
19 MR. BLOCK: Again, objection. I haven't read
20 them into the record. All I'm cross-referencing is
21 anyone she's previously identified that she talked to
22 about the facts and circumstances throughout the fall
23 of 2006.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR. SANDERS: Through 2009.
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1 THE WITNESS: There's no way I would be able -- I
2 have no clue.
3 If you're asking me if I talk about this on a
4 daily basis, no, I do not. I try not to talk about
5 this on a daily basis. I lead a normal life, okay, so
6 I don't talk about this pageant at all. I'm too busy.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q Well, you admitted in one of your e-mails that
9 people call you all the time about it, and you tell them
10 how sad you are about it and everything, so --
11 A That --
12 Q -- are those people different than the ones that
13 have been previously mentioned?
14 A That would have been in 2006. That would have
15 been right after everything took place.
16 No. To this day, do they call me? No, they do
17 not.
18 MR. SANDERS: Okay. I don't think I have any
19 other questions at this time.
20 We do still have two certified questions -- we
21 didn't have any in this continued deposition -- that
22 will have to be addressed by the Court. And I just
23 reserve -- with regards to those certified questions,
24 depending on how the judge rules on those -- to call
25 you back and ask about any collateral information that
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1 may come from those questions.
2 MR. BLOCK: Do you want to read those certified
3 questions into the record, just so we know what they
4 are? Because I'm --
5 MR. SANDERS: They're in the previous transcript.
6 MR. BLOCK: I guess I'm not understanding what
7 you mean by a "certified question," I guess.
8 MR. SANDERS: Well, Mr. Block, if you're not
9 familiar with depositions, this is the deposition
10 typed up by Laurie Miller here.
11 MR. BLOCK: I'm familiar --
12 MR. SANDERS: She indicates, on Page 3, Certified
13 Question 1 is on Page 7 of the deposition, and
14 Certified Question No. 2 is on Page 59.
15 MR. BLOCK: Let me look at it. Page 7; okay.
16 (Mr. Block perusing document.)
17 Okay. So that was, you wanted to know how much
18 she paid Mr. Eikner; is that correct? That's Page 6,
19 and it goes on to 7; is that correct?
20 MR. SANDERS: That's the certified question.
21 MR. BLOCK: And do you want to explain the
22 relevance of why the amount of money she paid to
23 Mr. Eikner is relevant?
24 Because we're supposed to work out our disputes
25 before going to the judge, so -- maybe I'm not seeing
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1 it -- so what's the relevance?
2 MR. SANDERS: The relevance with regards to this
3 is basically how she was being represented.
4 She indicated that her aunt's real estate agent
5 took him to homes -- you know, I'll just say this:
6 Mr. Eikner pretty much indicated that he wasn't
7 getting paid anything.
8 MR. BLOCK: Well, whether he was paid one penny
9 or a lot of money, I'm just trying to understand the
10 relevance to the underlying question in the suit,
11 which is whether you had a contract or whether she
12 tortiously interfered with that contract.
13 What differences does it make how much she paid
14 Mr. Eikner?
15 MR. SANDERS: Well, and again, too, she's now
16 represented by you, which is now covered underneath an
17 insurance policy.
18 MR. BLOCK: Right.
19 I'm just trying, as the judge said, to try to
20 work out our differences. I'm trying really hard to
21 understand, if she paid him a nickel or if she paid
22 him a lot of money, how that bears on the underlying
23 dispute.
24 MR. SANDERS: And again, I think it's relevant,
25 and I don't think it's irrelevant.
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1 And again, I know you hate it when I say that
2 it's general discovery, but it's general discovery.
3 MR. BLOCK: Okay. So it's your position, it's
4 relevant because it's general discovery?
5 MR. SANDERS: Correct.
6 MR. BLOCK: And there is no other reason why you
7 want it?
8 MR. SANDERS: No, that's not what I said. I've
9 cited other reasons.
10 MR. BLOCK: What is it -- I'm missing the other
11 reason. What is the other reason it's relevant?
12 MR. SANDERS: I've already cited all that. I'm
13 not going to get stuck on the record, and you produce
14 a copy of this and say, "Your Honor, this is the only
15 thing that he said in deposition." So I'm not going
16 to fall into that trap, Mr. Block.
17 I have two certified questions. I'm going to
18 hand him those. We'll take them up with the Court.
19 MR. BLOCK: Can you read back what he said was
20 the relevance, so I understand it? Maybe if I hear it
21 again.
22 (Thereupon, the statement last-above referred to
23 was read by the reporter.)
24 The best I can come up with, with how she was
25 being represented, is, if you're concerned that
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1 someone else was paying Mr. Eikner's bill, and that
2 would lead to a bias in her testimony, that's a fair
3 question; you could ask that.
4 MR. SANDERS: Or if she was getting it for free,
5 which is what I believe, that's also relevant.
6 MR. BLOCK: If she's getting free legal service
7 from Mr. Eikner because -- for whatever reason, then
8 I'm not seeing the relevance.
9 You think Mr. Eikner is getting a payback from
10 Defendant? I'm not seeing it.
11 MR. SANDERS: I'm not going to get into this
12 discussion with you.
13 MR. BLOCK: All right; all right.
14 Well, now, the certified question on Page 59, I
15 don't mean to be daft, but I don't see a question. I
16 don't object; there's just a bunch of questions and
17 answers on Page 59.
18 If you want, I'll show you my Page 59. Maybe I'm
19 missing it.
20 THE WITNESS: It's just a bunch of different
21 questions.
22 MR. BLOCK: And, obviously, I'll be happy to talk
23 to you about the second question, well, because of the
24 judge's very clear instructions to try to work
25 everything out. I'm just not seeing it on Page 59.
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1 Maybe it's a typographical error by the reporter. If
2 you want some time to go through the transcript, maybe
3 it's on another page.
4 MR. SANDERS: The questions were, on 59 -- I
5 don't know what your 59 says -- Question: Now, was
6 Ray McLeod advising you..."
7 MR. BLOCK: Oh, wait. You know what? I see what
8 it is. I see what it is. Wait. I'll show you what
9 I'm looking at, so you don't think I'm completely
10 daft.
11 This pays "Page 59" here, but you see 68 up
12 there? I think, for some reason, when this printed
13 out, we're getting weird page numbers. I think I have
14 to look for the "59" up there.
15 THE REPORTER: If you printed it off an ASCII, it
16 does that.
17 MR. BLOCK: Okay. Mystery solved. Thank you for
18 clarifying that.
19 Is 59, then, below?
20 MR. SANDERS: Yes.
21 MR. BLOCK: There it is.
22 "Question: And what, if anything, did he
23 indicate to you about that situation?"
24 "Now, was Ray McLeod advising you as the attorney
25 for the Miss Florida Pageant, or was he advising you
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1 as an attorney..."
2 "He was acting as the attorney for the Miss
3 Florida Pageant."
4 I've got to go backwards.
5 "Did anything else occur, relating to this
6 lawsuit, on...the 17th?"
7 That's "Sunday the 17th."
8 "I'm sure that there were e-mails..."
9 Yeah, I'll allow you to ask the second one. You
10 can ask her.
11 MR. SANDERS: Well, again --
12 MR. BLOCK: Do you want to do the lead in, so --
13 you can go through the Q and A?
14 MR. SANDERS: Sure. I'll give her some
15 background on it.
16 MR. BLOCK: Do you mind if I show her the page?
17 MR. SANDERS: Sure. In fact, you can let her
18 read it right up to --
19 MR. BLOCK: Yeah.
20 MR. SANDERS: -- your direction for her not to
21 answer.
22 (Witness perusing document.)
23 (Discussion off the record.)
24 MR. BLOCK: Okay. Do you want to answer the
25 question?
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1 THE WITNESS: The question was: "And what, if
2 anything, did he indicate to you about the situation?"
3 MR. BLOCK: "He" being Ray McLeod.
4 THE WITNESS: And he's talking to me about the
5 e-mails that happened on Sunday the 17th?
6 "Did anything else occur, relating to this
7 lawsuit, on Sunday the 17th?"
8 "I'm sure that there were e-mails that were sent
9 back and forth between myself and Mary Sullivan."
10 "Question: So you believe there was more than
11 just the single early morning e-mail?"
12 "Answer: Yes. There may have also been e-mails
13 from myself to Ray McLeod."
14 "Question: Now, was Ray McLeod advising you as
15 the attorney for the Miss Florida Pageant, or was he
16 advising you as an attorney for you, with regards to
17 the situation?"
18 "He was acting as the attorney for the Miss
19 Florida Pageant."
20 "Question: And what, if anything, did he
21 indicate to you about the situation?"
22 If I remember correctly, it would have been that
23 I needed to, maybe, submit a franchise agreement; I
24 needed to become incorporated; he could help lead me
25 to a website that I could download those forms; he
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1 would help me with filling out the paperwork, if I had
2 any questions. That would be about it.
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
4 BY MR. SANDERS:
5 Q And were those in the form of e-mails, or were
6 those in telephone conversations?
7 A There may have been some of both.
8 Q And did you provide those e-mails to your --
9 either of your attorneys?
10 A Like, again, I've said, I've given you everything
11 that I have.
12 Q And if I don't have any of those e-mails, do you
13 know what may have happened to them?
14 A Well, once again, going back to March 2nd, 2007,
15 when Jeff and I moved into a new home, he went to turn on
16 the computer, to set it up, and there was absolutely --
17 there was nothing; it was just dead.
18 Q Well, then the question begs: How did you
19 produce some e-mails, if the computer was dead, and not
20 others?
21 A I could not answer that.
22 But I turned over everything that I needed to
23 turn over, at that time, to Mr. Eikner.
24 Q How were you able to re-create those if your
25 computer hard drive had been fried?
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1 MR. BLOCK: And, again --
2 THE WITNESS: I obtained (sic) Tod -- after you
3 sent me the stuff in January, I obtained Tod two days
4 afterwards. So I would have given Tod all of that
5 stuff then, so it would have been the end of January,
6 first part of February.
7 BY MR. SANDERS:
8 Q Of what year?
9 A 2007; because I was served in January, and I had
10 to obtain Tod right afterwards.
11 MR. BLOCK: And if it helps, on Exhibit 6 of this
12 deposition, there's a printout dated January 20th,
13 2007. Obviously, the e-mail is from a time period
14 before; so again, I don't mean to give testimony, but
15 it implies that that e-mail was printed out around
16 January 20th, 2007.
17 MR. SANDERS: And again, that's your testimony.
18 We don't know what that --
19 MR. BLOCK: Oh, wait.
20 MR. SANDERS: We don't know what means down below
21 there, do we?
22 MR. BLOCK: Well --
23 MR. SANDERS: Why don't you ask your client if
24 she knows what that means.
25 MR. BLOCK: Well, I guess we're pointing that
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1 out.
2 MR. SANDERS: Well, again --
3 MR. BLOCK: If you want to ask her that, that's
4 fine.
5 THE WITNESS: What am I answering?
6 MR. BLOCK: No, don't worry about it. I haven't
7 asked a question. I was trying to help him.
8 BY MR. SANDERS:
9 Q Your attorney has referenced one e-mail, out of
10 many that have been placed into the record today, that has
11 the date down at the bottom of it.
12 Does that date refresh your recollection of when
13 you printed everything up for Mr. Eikner and gave it to
14 him?
15 A I don't know; I don't know.
16 Q So you would have given all of that to Mr. Eikner
17 because you printed it up before the hard drive went south.
18 So where are those e-mails from you and --
19 A Okay. Once again, I have given every single
20 thing that I have -- I don't have anything else in my
21 possession -- I gave Tod everything. There was not
22 anything else. I don't have anything else at my -- in my
23 personal belongings. I do not have it.
24 Q And the only e-mails that you've produced were
25 e-mails between yourself and Kevin Sanders, and yourself
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1 and Mary Sullivan? There were no other e-mails that you've
2 produced?
3 MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form, and
4 foundation.
5 You haven't shown her her document production.
6 Whatever her document production was through Tod it
7 is, but you're not showing it to her now.
8 MR. SANDERS: And again, I don't have it with me.
9 I took some pieces out of it, but I didn't receive
10 anything from you and Ray McLeod.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, then, I'm sorry, but I gave
12 him everything that I had.
13 MR. SANDERS: Again, no further questions, then,
14 until we resolve the issue on the attorney's fee
15 question.
16 You have the -- your attorney can instruct you,
17 but you have, again, as you exercised the last time,
18 the right to read --
19 MR. BLOCK: Right. We'll read.
20 (Witness excused.)
21 (Thereupon, the deposition was concluded at
22 approximately 4:25 p.m.)
23 - - -
24
25
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1
2 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
)
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL )
5 I, Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter, certify that
6 JENNIFER HERRINGTON personally appeared before me and was
7 duly sworn.
8 WITNESS my hand and official seal at
9 Jacksonville, this 26th day of May 2009.
10
11 _____________________________
Laurie J. Miller
12
3 DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
)
5 COUNTY OF DUVAL )
6 I, Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter, do hereby
7 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
8 report the foregoing deposition and that the transcript is
9 a true record of the testimony given by the witness.
10 I further certify that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
12 I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
13 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
14 interested in the action.
15 Dated this 26th day of May 2009.
16
17 _________________________________
Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter
18
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1 E R R A T A S H E E T
2 This is to certify that I, Jennifer Herrington, have
3 read the foregoing transcript of my deposition, Pages 113
4 through 245, taken on Wednesday, May 13, 2009, and find the
5 same to be correct, with the following exceptions (if any):
6 PAGE LINE WHERE IT SAYS: SHOULD SAY:
7 ____ ____ ______________________ _______________________
8 ____ ____ ______________________ _______________________
9 ____ ____ ______________________ _______________________
10 ____ ____ ______________________ _______________________
_____________________________
Jennifer Herrington
Verbatim Reporting Services, Inc.
Verbatim Reporting Services, Inc.
916 Blackstone Building
233 East Bay Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32202
==========================================================
Phone: (904) 355-0198
May 26, 2009
David E. Block, Esquire
Jackson, Lewis, LLP
Two South Biscayne Boulevard
One South Biscayne Tower, Suite 3500
Miami, Florida 33131
In re: North Florida Scholarship Organization vs. Miss
Florida Scholarship Pageant, et al.
Case No. 16-2007-CA-00575-MA Division: CV-C
Dear Mr. Block:
This letter is to inform you that the continuation of the
deposition of your client, Jennifer Herrington, which was
taken on Wednesday, May 13, 2009, in the above-referenced
case has been transcribed, the original of which I am
holding in my office for Ms. Herrington to read and sign,
per your request.
Please have Ms. Herrington call my office at the number
listed above as soon as possible, to arrange a time that is
mutually convenient for her to review the deposition
transcript. Alternatively, I will forward the original
errata to you, for execution by Ms. Herrington, should you
request a copy of the transcript.
If you have any questions or if I may be of further
assistance to you, please don't hesitate to call.
Cordially yours,
Laurie J. Miller,
Court Reporter
cc: Kevin S. Sanders, Esquire
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