TAYLOR REESE AND ASSOCIATES, INC.
(305) 444-7331
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT, FOURTH
JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR
DUVAL COUNTY, FLORIDA
GENERAL JURISDICTION DIVISION
CASE NO.: 16-2007-CA-00575-MA
DIVISION: CV-C
NORTH FLORIDA SCHOLARSHIP ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida
Not-For-Profit Corporation,
Plaintiff,
VS.
MISS FLORIDA SCHOLARSHIP PAGEANT, INC., a Florida corporation d/b/a
The Miss Florida Pageant; JENNIFER HERRINGTON; JACKSONVILLE
SCHOLARSHIP FOUNDATION, INC., a Florida Not-For-Profit
Corporation, VOYAGER INFO-SYSTEMS, a California
Business d/b/a VoyForums.com; and GLOBAL GUEST, d/b/a
AmazingForums.com, a Foreign Business,
Defendants.
____________________________________/
299 Alhambra Circle, Suite 223
Coral Gables, Florida
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
1:05 p.m. - 6:30 p.m.
DEPOSITION OF RICHARD WALKER
Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff before Mary G.
Stephenson, FPR and Notary Public in and for the
State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of taking
Deposition.
APPEARANCES:
KEVIN S. SANDERS, ESQ.
817 WILLOW BRANCH AVENUE
JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA 32205
On behalf of the Plaintiff.
JACKSON LEWIS LLP
BY: DAVID E. BLOCK, ESQ.
ONE BISCAYNE TOWER, SUITE 3500
TWO SOUTH BISCAYNE BOULEVARD
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131
On behalf of the Defendants.
I N D E X
WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
RICHARD WALKER
BY MR. EVANS: 4
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E X H I B I T S
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Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 17
Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 53
Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 88
Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 98
Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 115
Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 122
Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 126
Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 127
Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 133
Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 137
Plaintiff's Exhibit 11 139
Plaintiff's Exhibit 12 143
Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 145
Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 146
Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 149
Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 153
Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 154
Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 156
Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 157
Plaintiff's Exhibit 20 161
Plaintiff's Exhibit 21 163
Plaintiff's Exhibit 22 172
Plaintiff's Exhibit 23 194
Thereupon:
RICHARD WALKER,
was called as a witness and, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Walker. I'm Kevin
Sanders. You probably know me.
A. Yes.
Q. I'm taking your deposition today.
Have you ever had your deposition taken
before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. What circumstances was that in?
A. Usually lawsuits involving the University
of Miami.
Q. Then you are at least, I guess, somewhat
familiar with a deposition. A deposition is just merely
a tool that the rules of civil procedure allow for
attorneys to use to do investigations, to have an
opportunity to ask questions, to proffer testimony, and
things like that. It's supposed to be a friendly
intercourse that goes back and forth, and with that in
mind, I am going to ask you questions.
If you understand it, please feel free to
answer it. If you don't understand it or if you are
confused and you would want for me to maybe try to
clarify it, I'll do my best that I can, but I'll need you
to tell me that so that I can do that for you.
A. Okay.
Q. Your attorney may make an objection. That
is his prerogative. He preserves the record on that, but
unless he instructs you not to answer, you will still
need to answer the question.
If you need to take a break, if you need to
pause for a minute, if you need to use the rest room,
whatever like that, again, either let me or your attorney
know and we will take a short break and then reconvene in
a few minutes and start back over again.
With that all in mind, we can get started.
For the sake of the record, could you state
your full and complete name?
A. James Richard Walker.
Q. We are allowed to ask some foundational
questions. I'm not prying into your personal life or
anything like that.
Where do you reside?
A. 362 Northeast 92nd Street, Miami Shores,
Florida.
Q. How long have you resided there?
A. Since June of 2006.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I'm the assistant vice president for
student affairs at the University of Miami.
Q. How long have you been employed as such?
A. In this particular position, since June of
2003, but I have been employed at the University of Miami
since June of 1987.
Q. Did you say '87?
A. '87, 22 years.
Q. What is your relationship to the Miss
Florida Scholarship Pageant, Inc.?
A. I am the chairman of the board of
directors.
Q. What is a chairman of the board for the
Miss Florida pageant?
A. The chairman overseas the board meetings,
puts together the agenda for the board meetings,
facilitates the board meetings, also facilitates writing
franchise meetings when we have franchise meetings. That
is the general duties of the chairman.
I also in terms of some actual pageant
responsibilities, I oversee the production of the actual
Miss Florida pageant, meaning the show piece of the
pageant and work specifically with putting together the
program book for the pageant.
Q. How long have you been with the Miss
Florida Scholarship Pageant, Inc.?
A. Approximately June 2002.
Q. How did you become involved with it since
June 2002?
A. In June, the Miss America organization
approached Mary Sullivan about particularly taking over
the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant. Mary, myself and
Rob Loy agreed to do so, and we formed a corporation, the
Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant Incorporated.
Q. Who is in charge of the corporation known
as Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant, Inc.?
A. Clarify who is in charge. Clarify the
question. The board of directors is responsible for the
oversight of the corporation.
Q. Thank you. Who is the board of directors
for the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant Inc.?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Name the individuals?
The Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant, Inc.
board of directors consists of volunteers that
live throughout the State of Florida.
The current board members are, obviously,
myself, Mary Sullivan, Rob Loy, Keith Williams,
Dr. Patty Adeeb, David Gilbert, Shannon Rees, Mary
Demtrow. Norma Storms is a field director on the
board. Patti Bolding is a field director on the
board, and Lynn Dalton is a field director on the
board, and the other director Dana Dalton, judge.
I think I hit everybody.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Those are the current board of directors?
A. Ex officio members, too, Ray McLeod, who is
our in-house counsel for the board, and Wayne Dewitt, who
is our CPA.
Q. Is there more than one board of directors
for the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant Inc.?
A. There is an overall board of directors and
then there is an executive board, which are the officers.
Q. Who is on the, I guess, executive board?
A. Myself, I'm the chairman. Mary Sullivan is
the president. Rob Loy is the vice president, and Keith
Williams is the secretary. I forgot Keith in the initial
essay. I am rattling these names off the top of my head.
Q. Do you have bylaws or any other written
document that sets out what the job duties and
responsibilities are of the board of directors for either
the full board that you mentioned or the executive board?
MR. BLOCK: Foundation.
THE WITNESS: There are bylaws. Quite
frankly, I don't have them memorized off the top
of my head.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Who has control of those bylaws?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Our attorney, Ray McLeod.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If I were to tell you I took Ray's
deposition and he says he doesn't have any such?
A. They are in existence somewhere. He helped
draft them.
Q. But you wouldn't have them in your
possession?
A. I might, but if I do, it has been a long
time since I looked at them.
Q. How long would it be since you looked at
them?
A. Probably since they were originally
written.
Q. Would that be, I guess, in 2002 when you
all formed?
A. Approximately, uh-huh.
Q. So let me just ask you, have there been any
revisions to the bylaws since 2002?
A. I'm trying to recall. I think there may.
I know at one point there was a discussion. I can't
recall if we actually amended it. It had to do with
expanding the number of people to sit on the board.
I can't recall if we actually amended the
document or not. There was some discussion.
Q. Who would be in possession of any amended
bylaws or amended --
A. Again, I would have to look them up. I
would have to find them. Ray was the one who originally
drafted the bylaws.
Q. Do you know anybody that has a copy of the
bylaws?
A. Mary Sullivan might. I might somewhere,
but, again, like I said, it's not a document that I look
at everyday.
Q. Let me show you a document. I don't know
if you have seen it or not. It is Corporations Online
for the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant. It was pulled
on 10/20 of 2006. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you identify that for the benefit of
the record?
A. It's a copy of the Florida not-for-profit
filing with the Division of Corporations for the State of
Florida for the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant
Incorporated.
Q. I note on this, it says the date filed, it
kind of matches. It says June of 2002. Do you see that?
I can point it out to you.
A. Yes, originally filed 2002.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection when
the corporation was formed?
A. That sounds correct.
Q. It says that the registered agent is Ray
McLeod?
A. Correct.
Q. What I'm interested in is that it says that
the officers are Mary Sullivan, James Walker and Robert
Loy?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. There are no other officers or directors of
the corporation. Do you know if Corporations Online have
been amended to include the names of all the individuals
that you earlier recited?
A. I don't know right off the top of my head.
Q. If that were to be done, whose
responsibility would it be to amend the corporation on an
annual renewal every year?
A. It would be between the registered agent,
between Ray McLeod probably in conversation with Mary
Sullivan, the president.
Q. Why would it be between Ray McLeod and Mary
Sullivan?
A. I'm just assuming. She would be the one
probably that he would contact in terms of making sure we
were ready to amend and file our annual report.
Q. Can we agree that at least in October of
2006 that the only directors of the corporation were Mary
Sullivan, James Walker and Robert Loy based on
corporations information online?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, foundation.
THE WITNESS: I can tell you what is listed
in this document that you presented to me. It
lists three directors. I can tell you there were
more directors that were members of the board at
the time.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You don't know if that would have been
updated with Corporations Online at that time?
A. All I can tell you is the document you
presented to me dated 10/20/06 has three directors
listed.
Q. Okay. Do you know if the current
documentation for the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant,
Inc. would have all the other directors that you have
mentioned on it?
A. I would have to go review it to see what it
has.
Q. If it was to be amended at any point
between 2006 and 2009, Mary would have contacted Ray to
make that amendment?
A. Ray and Mary usually would talk about the
time to file the annual report.
Q. What, and I may get redundant with this,
but based on this filing of Corporations Online, what was
Mary Sullivan's or what -- yes. What was in 2006 Mary
Sullivan's responsibility to the Miss Florida Scholarship
Pageant, Inc.?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: She served as the executive
director and president.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. What is, I guess, the job description of
the executive director and president?
A. She pretty much handles kind of day-to-day
operations for the organization. She handles
communications directly with the Miss America
organization. She handle communications with the local
franchise holders. She handles communications with the
contestants. She also supervises and books Miss
Florida's appearances. So she is in constant contact
with the raining Miss Florida in connection with her
appearance schedule.
Q. What kind of latitude does she have to act
on behalf of the corporation without a board decision?
MR. BLOCK: Objection as to form.
THE WITNESS: If it's just daily routine
basic operations, she has the authority to act on
routine matters.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. How do you define basic operations as
opposed to other matters?
A. What I just talked about, day-to-day
communications, letters, e-mails, those kind of matters.
Q. I think you said with Miss America,
franchises and with contestants? Anything else?
A. Contestant communications. She would be
working with entities in terms of preparations for
upcoming annual pageant in terms of working with the
city, talking to hotels, talking to venues, those kind of
things in terms of day-to-day preparations.
Q. So she would be allowed to talk with hotels
and set up hotel accommodations?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You have to say verbally yes or no. That
is one of those instructions I forgot to give you.
A. Sorry. Not a problem.
She has the authority to have conversations
with them about our upcoming pageant season.
Q. And venues. You said cities. What do you
mean by talking with cities?
A. For example, we currently hold our pageant
in the city of St. Petersburg. It's a partnership with
them. They help sponsor the pageant. So she is in
contact with the city's marketing department,
periodically meets with the mayor, chamber of commerce.
When it comes to executing contracts and
that kind of thing, that is when it has to be approved by
the board.
Q. But she has the power to negotiate all
those contracts?
A. Yes, she does.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Then James E. Walker, that is you; is that
correct?
A. That is incorrect. It should be James R.
Q. James R. Okay. That is why I was
double-checking to make sure.
Back in 2006, was your job description any
different than it is now such as you just described
earlier?
A. With the Miss Florida pageant?
Q. Right.
A. It was the same.
Q. Then Rob Loy, Robert Loy, he is listed as a
director. What was his job description in 2006 and then
what is it today if it's different?
A. He was then and is today the vice president
of the pageant and he -- I don't recall exactly what his
job is, but I think it's fairly similar to that in 2006
as it is today with one slight change.
I do remember now. He works with
coordinating our judges. There is a judges' list
required to be a certified judge in the Miss Florida
pageant. He keeps track of those. An individual can
only judge so many pageants in a pageant season. So he
is the one that coordinates all that. He works with the
judges' list to make sure they are in compliance with
Miss America rules and regulations.
He also during the pageant, actually, he's
responsible for the oversight of the judges. He works
directly with selection of the judges in the pageant and
in pageant week he's in charge of all the hospitality and
getting them from point A to point B.
Currently, he's also the co-executive
director of our Miss Florida's Outstanding Teen.
Q. That would be the difference that you were
talking before. He wasn't co-director of Miss Florida's
Outstanding Teen before?
A. Not in 2006.
Q. Not in 2006. Okay.
MR. SANDERS: This is will be 1.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you a 2006 Miss Florida pageant
program book and ask you if you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Would that be a true and accurate copy of
the Miss Florida program book for 2006?
A. That is.
Q. I have paper clipped one section there and
I have actually made color copies of it. You had
mentioned a board of directors. Now, we have seen the
board of directors listed with corporate information.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Is this the board of directors that you
were referring to when you first answered the question
who the board is?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: This is the board -- the book
you are showing me lists the board in 2006. The
ones I named are the current board members. There
have been some changes since 2006.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But in 2006, that program book accurately
reflects what you believe was the board of directors at
the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Like I said, I made color copies of that
just because it was easier to make them in color than it
was in black and white.
Could you compare these to the book and
tell me if these accurately reflect what was in the book?
A. It does accurately reflect what was in the
book.
Q. Let me give you those to look at.
You have already described Mary Sullivan's
job. Anything additional that you need to add to that
that you can
think of for 2006?
A. It's a general description.
Q. It does say executive director and
president?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that one and the same job or is there a
distinction between duties as executive director and
duties as president?
A. It's basically the same job. The president
is more reflective of the title in the corporate
documents. There is a president, vice president, et
cetera.
The executive director denotes the title
used predominantly by Miss America to designate the
person within the state that handles the day-to-day
operations.
Q. So is Mary Sullivan or the corporation
listed with Miss America as the executive director for
the Miss Florida franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Franchise listed with Miss
America is the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant,
Incorporated. That is who holds the franchise for
Miss America with Mary Sullivan listed as the
executive director.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Okay. Do you know if Miss America has any
rules or regulations with regards to how a state
franchise is to be run, such as bylaws or franchise
agreement or whatever?
A. In terms of the how it is to be run?
Q. Right.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have never seen any of
their rules in writing other than you have to in
order to run the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant
within the State of Florida under the Miss America
system, the corporation has to be awarded the
franchise directly from Miss America.
In terms of day-to-day operations how it is
corporately structured, to my knowledge I have not
seen any specific guidelines as required from Miss
America other than it has to be a corporation.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Have you actually seen the franchise
agreement?
A. I have seen the franchise agreement.
Q. Do you sign the franchise agreement or does
Mary sign to the franchise agreement?
A. Mary signs the franchise agreement.
Q. Where is that franchise agreement kept? Is
it sent back to Miss America?
A. Sent back to Miss America.
Q. Do you all keep a copy of it?
A. If we have a copy, Mary would have the
copy?
Q. Have you or Rob Loy ever signed the
franchise agreement with Miss America?
A. I don't recall. I know I signed an annual
report. I can't recall if I signed a franchise.
Q. Since we have got, in my opinion, several
different boards, has any of the other board members
listed in the exhibit before you, have they ever signed
the franchise agreement?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Is it either one of the boards the one
which is the three listed with Tallahassee or the one
that is in the program book, do they have any say in the
execution of the franchise agreement with Miss America?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes. The organization has to
decide whether as a corporation we are applying
for that franchise. Those franchises are awarded
some on an annual basis, some every two years.
That is at Miss America's discretion.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Would that discussion with regards to a
Miss America franchise be held in a formal board meeting?
A. Either executive board meeting or probably
a formal board meeting. To my knowledge, since 2002,
there has never been an objection for us reapplying when
the franchise is due.
Q. Well, do you recall any particular
discussions either in 2006 or since with regards to
matters of the state franchise coming up before any board
of directors?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Myself, honestly, I don't
recall.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Are all minutes of the boards taken and
kept?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is responsible for that?
A. Keith Williams, the secretary.
Q. Where would he keep the minutes of those
meetings?
A. You would have to ask him exactly the
location where he keeps them in.
Q. I did ask him at his deposition and he said
they are not in his possession and he thought they were
in your possession.
A. They are not in my possession. They are in
his possession.
Q. Are you saying then that he --
A. He's the one that takes the minutes unless
he's absent and then someone else will take the minutes.
Q. So if Mr. Williams denied having the
minutes, would that be a false statement by him?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: No. I don't know that it's a
false statement.
I would assume as the secretary he should
have the minutes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If he doesn't have the minutes, who might
instead of him?
A. Mary might have a copy.
Q. You think Mary would have a copy. The
original should still be in Keith's possession?
A. Keith is the secretary. He takes the
minutes.
Q. Again, you are listed in the 2006 program
book as the CEO and chairman of the board?
A. Yes.
Q. You just mentioned earlier that you were
chairman of the board. Is there a difference between
those two jobs?
A. It's basically the same job.
Q. You had said executive director for Mary
Sullivan involved the franchise with Miss America and
president was more for the corporation.
Is that the same for your description?
Which would be CEO and which would be chairman as applied
to Miss America or to the corporation?
A. I think CEO is more just the daily working
title that we use, the general term of understanding.
The chairman of the board is also
officially on file with Miss America and it's also part
of the corporation.
Q. So you are listed as the CEO. Is your name
mentioned in the franchise agreement?
MR. BLOCK: Object to foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall without seeing
the franchise agreement. I know the document in
the corporation is listed in the franchise
agreement.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So you think CEO and chairman of the board
is in reference to the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: They are both titles for the
same position, basically.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You have already described Rob Loy's job as
vice president. That is consistent.
Back in 2006 Kitty Potapow was on the board
according to the program book that we are looking at.
What was Kitty Potapow's responsibility as a board
member?
A. Kitty was also a vice president for two
primary functions. She was in charge of fund-raising and
sponsorship of the pageant and oversaw during pageant
week the actual housing of the contestants and the
chaperoning of the contestants.
Q. And other than those responsibilities,
what, if any, additional responsibilities did she have as
a board member?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't quite understand the
question.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I guess I'm just trying -- other than the
responsibilities that you said that she was vice
president -- and let me ask it this way.
When you said she was in charge of
fund-raising and chaperoning housing --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- was that her responsibilities as a board
member or as a vice president?
A. Both.
Q. Now, I haven't asked this question so I am
going to backtrack a little bit.
In any of the bylaws that you have seen
since 2002, does it describe in those bylaws what duties
and responsibilities an executive director and president
has?
A. I would have to see the bylaws in order to
answer.
Q. So you have no independent recollection of
what the bylaws allow?
A. Right off the top of my head, I can't tell
you what is stated in the bylaws with regard to the
description without seeing the bylaws.
Q. What, if anything, do you recall in the
bylaws that describes the duties and responsibilities for
the CEO and chairman of the board?
A. Again, without seeing the actual copy of
the bylaws, I don't want to misspeak. I would have to
see the copy of the bylaws.
The general responsibilities are what I
already stated.
Q. These general responsibilities, do you know
if those are in the bylaws?
A. Again, I would have to see the actual
bylaws.
Q. Okay. So when you are running the
corporation and you are running the pageant, are you all
just running it from memory?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: We run it by the way we feel
we need to run.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Who determines how we need to run it?
A. Day-to-day operations as I indicated with
Mary Sullivan. We are usually in communication almost on
a daily basis if there are matters that need to be
discussed.
If there are matters that we feel the
executive board needs to weigh in on, then the executive
board will do so at their meetings and if there are
matters that require the full board action, then the full
board will discuss those matters at the meeting.
Q. The corporation -- I'm looking again at
Exhibit 1 -- it's a nonprofit, isn't it?
A. Correct.
Q. To your knowledge, are there any
requirements for the way a nonprofit runs itself that is
different from a profit in order to maintain its status
as a nonprofit?
MR. BLOCK: Form and foundation.
THE WITNESS: Basically, my understanding
is that we have to have a corporation. We have to
have a board of directors with a minimum of three
individuals required by the state. We do file on
an annual basis our tax return for a nonprofit
corporation, and technically a nonprofit
corporation needs to have at least one annual
board of directors meeting, and we have them more
frequently than that.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Is it your -- I'll ask it a different way.
If I can take your testimony that you
previously -- I mean, you basically run it the way you
run it. You don't run it by the bylaws. You run it the
way you either think the bylaws say or the way that you
remember them?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, we run it
the way the corporation is structured with the
officers and members of the board of directors.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But you haven't looked at the bylaws on how
the bylaws say to run it since 2002?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: It has been awhile since I
looked at it, yes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know if anybody has looked at the
bylaws since 2002?
A. You would have to ask every one of these
individuals that question.
Q. But as far as you are concerned, you
haven't?
A. It has been awhile since I looked at the
bylaws. How long ago it has been, I cannot give you a
specific date.
Q. We talked about Keith Williams. He is
listed as the secretary/treasurer. Is he the secretary
and the treasurer for the Miss Florida Scholarship
Pageant, Inc.?
A. He officially is the secretary. He does
collect some funds in terms of relationship to ticket
sales, program book ads, our pageant store. Some of the
funds run through him. He handles the credit card
machines and those kinds of things.
Q. When you say he's officially the secretary,
does that mean he's not officially the treasurer?
A. I don't think he was ever officially
elected treasurer.
Q. Do you know why he is titled as the
treasurer in the 2006 program book?
A. No. Again, I'm assuming because he was
handling some of the cash operations.
Q. But he doesn't officially have that title.
Other than handling some of the cash operations, does he
handle all the cash operations?
A. Some. It just depends; checks, credit
cards, those kinds of submissions. It depends what the
event is. The gala ticket sales, he coordinates ticket
sales for the pageant. So all those funds usually come
in through him to be deposited in the bank. So he has
some functions as the treasurer. He does not write
checks on a daily basis.
Q. Who writes the checks?
A. Our checks require two signatures. We have
two checking accounts. One is for the operations
account. Those require two signatures; either myself,
Rob Loy, Mary Sullivan or Keith Williams I believe is
always a signatory on the account. So it requires two of
those to sign.
There is a second account for the
scholarships and we also have signatories on the
scholarship account, but I maintain the scholarship
account. I write those checks.
Q. There is one signature on the scholarship
account?
A. Two.
Q. Two?
A. Two different persons.
Q. Is anyone allowed to write checks outside
the four that you mentioned; yourself, Keith Williams,
Mary Sullivan and Rob Loy?
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. Patty Adeeb is listed as board member, but
it has underneath her scholarship chairman. What was and
is, if she is still with the board, Patty Adeeb's
responsibilities from 2006 forward?
A. She works directly with the contestants in
the submission of all documents required to administer
scholarships that the contestant has won as a result of
competing in the pageant. She overseas that entire
process. There's specific guidelines that the
contestants have to follow for submission to claim their
scholarship monies. She reviews all of the documents.
If everything is in line, then she indicates and
communicates to me that it has been approved and once
that is approved, then I actually send the check to the
contestant.
Q. So she does the paperwork and you
essentially sign off on it by sending the check?
A. Correct.
Q. Other than that job description, what, if
anything, does Patty Adeeb do either as scholarship
chairman or as a board of director?
A. Usually during pageant week, she is working
directly with the contestants in terms of hostess.
Sometimes she works directly with the reigning Miss
Florida to be a hostess for her making sure she gets from
one point to the other.
Q. When you say she is a hostess for Miss
Florida, she is sort of like a chaperone?
A. Yes. She serves as a chaperone for the
contestants of Miss Florida.
Q. Now, you have got, again, in the program
book Ray McLeod it says legal counsel as a board member.
Is he a board member?
A. He's an ex officio board member.
Q. Does it say he's an ex officio board member
on the piece of paper you handed me?
A. No.
Q. What would be Ray McLeod's, I guess, duties
or responsibility as an ex officio board member?
A. He consults with us on any legal matters.
He reviews all contracts before they are recommended to
the board and executed, and any other matters that we
think we need legal consultation on, he provides that
advice.
Q. Correct me if I'm wrong. Those all seem to
be legal responsibilities.
A. He does not have a vote on the board.
Q. Does he have any input into the board short
of the revision of contracts, the consult and the legal
advice?
A. He's typically present at board meetings.
He is free to have a voice, but he does not have a vote.
Q. You have Wayne Dewitt, and it's says CPA
underneath that as a board member. Is Wayne Dewitt a
board member?
A. He's an ex officio board member.
Q. It doesn't say ex officio there, does it?
A. It does not.
Q. What, if any, responsibilities does he have
as an ex officio board member?
A. He prepares our monthly financial
statements and presents them to the board. He also works
during pageant week typically with our pageant store in
terms of helping to assist with the store and the
operations of the store. He also files our taxes on an
annual basis.
Q. Is there a reason why Ray McLeod and Wayne
Dewitt are ex officio members and everybody else are
regular members of the board?
A. Because that is the way when we organized
it, neither one of them wanted to be voting members, but
we needed their services, an in-house counsel and a CPA,
and they also agreed to serve in an ex officio capacity.
It also allows them to -- by Miss America
rules, you cannot be a regular member of a board of
directors and judge local pageants. They both also had a
desire to judge local pageants, so by being ex officio
they are allowed to do that.
Q. Looking at the next page -- that is the
nine that is on the first page. The next page at the top
is Martha Dewitt. It says field director.
I'm sorry. Let me go back. I missed David
Gilbert. David Gilbert is down on the bottom, the last
one on the first page. I think you had mentioned him
when you first talked about a board.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What is his duties and responsibilities to
the board and distinguish that from whatever his duties
might be as the state field director?
A. He is a voting member of the board of
directors, and field director is kind of a working title
that we use. They are the individuals throughout the
state that work directly in contact with each of the
local pageants. Each of the local pageants is assigned a
field director from the state board of directors, who
works with him in the operations of their pageant. They
are present during their pageant. They oversee the
pageant to make sure it follows the Miss America rules
and regulations with regard to judging. They work
directly, usually with the auditors, to make sure that
that process is handled in a fair manner.
Q. Is that Mr. Gilbert's responsibilities?
A. He also during state pageant week, works
directly with the judges, is a host with Mr. Loy, and
also works directly with the auditors during the state
pageant.
Q. Now, most of the job responsibilities, it
sounded like except for, I guess, working with the judges
and the auditors in the Miss Florida pageant, seem to
relate to being a field director. Does he have any
separate responsibilities to the board other than what he
does as a field director?
A. That is pretty much it.
Q. Now we will go to the next page.
Martha Dewitt. Again, she is related to
Wayne Dewitt?
A. Yes, she is.
Q. At the time in 2006, she was a field
director also?
A. That is correct.
Q. What, if anything, did she do as a field
director?
A. Again, same. She would oversee and work
directly with local title holders, local executive
directors in the execution of their pageants, help to
answer any questions they may have. If it's a new
pageant, she might help them set up and get organized
with the pageant. Again, works the day of the pageant to
be there to supervise and make sure that the rules and
regulations of the Miss Florida pageant are followed, and
also I believe in 2006, Martha also worked during pageant
week. Part of the week as a hostess with the contestants
and the other part of the week she oversaw what we call
our Sunshine Princess program.
Q. Is she still on the board of directors?
A. She has resigned.
Q. Why did she resign?
A. She cited personal reasons, that she
felt -- she retired from her business a couple of years
ago. She had a store in Tallahassee, wedding dresses,
prom gowns, that kind of stuff, and she wanted to spend
more time with her grand kids, wasn't feeling that she
was being too retired having to do all this pageant work.
I think she was also doing some work with her son and
daughter's company.
Q. What area did Martha Dewitt have?
A. Predominantly the northeastern part of the
state. I'm sorry, northwestern. She lives in the
Tallahassee area, so within that vicinity.
Q. Shannon Rees, she is listed in the 2006
program book as a board of director and also says field
director underneath her name.
I am going to let you tell me if her job
description is the same as you spoke of David Gilbert. I
notice there is field director on a bunch of these. I
don't need you to explain it again and again unless you
know that particular person does something additional.
A. She has the same responsibilities with the
others in 2006 as far as being a field director. Shannon
also was the person in charge of overseeing purchasing
merchandise for our pageant store. That is what she
does.
Currently, Shannon is no longer a field
director, is just a member of the board of directors, but
still overseas all of our merchandise operations.
Q. Norma Storms is listed as board member and
also a field director.
Just tell me what her job responsibilities
were in 2006 and forward as applies.
A. Same field director responsibilities
working with local pageants, and during pageant week she
also serves as a hostess with the contestants.
Q. What area did Norma Storms have?
A. In 2006, she would have predominantly
handled northeastern Florida. We have since kind of
not -- done away from designating regions per se. So now
Norma covers a little bit of northeast. She does some
work down here in South Florida, Palm Beach, Homestead.
She likes to travel, but predominantly most of the
pageant she supervises University of Florida, Gainesville
through Jacksonville.
Q. And other than what you described as her
responsibilities as a field director, does she have any
responsibilities to the board of directors?
A. She is a voting member. All field
directors are voting members of the board of directors.
Q. Then we have Patti Bolding.
She is listed as a board of director and
field director. What was her job description in 2006 and
forward as applies?
A. Same responsibilities as stated before for
field directors. Patti would also work with being a
hostess for the contestants during pageant week and
predominantly has pageants within the Orlando, Lakeland,
central Florida area.
Q. Is she still with the Miss Florida
Scholarship Pageant, Inc.?
A. Yes, she is.
Q. Next, we have me Linda Stevison.
It says public relations and media
chairman. She is listed on the pages for board of
directors. What was her job responsibility in 2006
forward?
A. Pretty much basically as stated. She
worked with media requests during pageant week
specifically was her main responsibility, sent notices
out about advertising the pageant on local media outlets,
requests for interviews, those kinds of things of
contestants was run through her. So she supervised the
media process during pageant week.
Q. Anything else?
A. She at the time was also a voting member of
the board of directors.
Q. Next, we have Tom -- well. Is she still
with the board?
A. No, she is not.
Q. And why did she leave?
A. She cited that she -- personal reasons.
She had gone back to school to work on a degree. Decided
timewise. Again, it's a volunteer organization, so --
Q. Next we have Tom Boyko, and it says just
director underneath his name.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What responsibilities did Mr. Boyko have in
2006 and forward?
A. In 2006, he was a member of the board of
directors. He did not have specific responsibilities
other than he did work very closely with the two
co-directors for the Miss Florida's Outstanding Teen, and
then did just general things that needed to be done with
regard to the actual pageant, pageant operations.
Q. Anything else he did as a board member?
A. I know Tom did assist with getting
some fund-raising for the pageant as all board members
do. I can't recall any specific assignments. He was
kind of a generalist position. Where we needed help, he
was usually there to pitch in.
Q. Next is Kendal Jolly.
What, if any, responsibilities did he have
in 2006 and forward?
A. Kendal also worked very closely with two
co-executive directors for Outstanding Teen pageant, and
the production of that pageant, and was also a voting
member of the Miss Florida board, and also assisted in
more of a generalist kind of way in whatever needs to
occur during pageant week.
Q. Are Mr. Boyko and Mr. Jolly still on the
board?
A. No, they are not.
Q. Do you know why they left?
A. All I know is they resigned.
Q. Next is Keith Smith.
It says co-executive director MFOT. I'm
assuming MFOT stand for Miss Florida's Outstanding Teen.
A. That is correct.
Q. What, if any, duties or responsibilities
did he have on the board?
A. He was a voting board member of the Miss
Florida board of directors, and also was responsible with
Marc Caglia for overseeing and running the teen program,
the teen pageant, which is a separate pageant from the
actual Miss Florida pageant.
Q. Any other responsibilities to the Miss
Florida Scholarship Pageant board?
A. That is about it.
Q. You have listed a lot of job descriptions
in your testimony here today with regards to these two
pages from the 2006 book. Are any of these job
descriptions that you have given me listed in any of the
bylaws to the best of your knowledge?
A. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Q. Who are these individuals responsible to?
Who do they answer to? Who do they talk to? Who do they
contact? Who do they work things out with?
And if it's multiple people, let me know
who would do that.
If you want, I can go one by one if that is
easier for you or you can just give me a general
description.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It really depends on what the
issue or question is. Sometimes they would talk
directly to Mary. Occasionally, they might talk
to me. Sometimes they would talk to Rob. They
could be talking to Keith. So it really just
depends on what the particular -- if there is a
particular issue that that person has gone through
the litany of kind of whoever sees what, you know,
what that would entail.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me just ask a few specific questions
then.
A. Yes.
Q. Who does Mary Sullivan answer to?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The board of directors.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And is that the board of directors that is
in Exhibit 1 that is listed in Tallahassee or the board
of directors that we are looking at now from the 2006
program book?
MR. BLOCK: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Currently, it's not the 2006
board of directors. It's not the current.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I stand corrected. You are correct on
that. Let's just say in 2006, it was this board of
directors?
A. Correct.
Q. Who in 2006 did Richard Walker answer to?
A. The board of directors.
MR. BLOCK: Same objection.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me just ask you, I guess, a
supplemental question.
When the board was not meeting, who did
Mary answer to?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Generally, I think I
mentioned this earlier, day-to-day kind of
operations Mary and I usually are in communication
on daily basis. We discuss items, issues.
Sometimes she is in communication with Rob on a
daily basis, again, depending on what the issue is
if it falls under his jurisdiction. Sometimes
it's Keith depending on what the issue is.
Sometimes it's all four of us via e-mail depending
on what the issue is going on.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Depending on the issue, would the two of
you or the three of you or the four of you make decisions
for the corporation that might otherwise be a board of
director's decision?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There are certain decisions
by practice, function of the operations that the
executive board would handle and then there's
other matters that will be taken to the full
board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. What are the things that would be handled
by the full board as opposed to the executive board?
A. Again, it would depend. It would depend on
the matter. Typically, bigger items like, for example,
when we are setting, recommending, we, the executive
board on an annual basis just in terms of pageant
operations, the executive board would meet. We discuss
setting of ticket prices. That would then be
communicated to the full board and approved by the full
board.
If we are -- executive board would need to,
for example, sometimes we are looking at different hotel
options. In general, executive board would approve it.
We would discuss it. Sometimes we would send the matter
to the full board to get their input, what we might
decide to do.
Housing the contestants is a recent issue,
whether to house or not to house. There's some financial
decisions in this economy that people are trying to make.
Ultimately a decision would be made because it is a big
impact. That would be something we take to the full
board for discussion to get input because it has
financial implications on the organization, and it also
has implications on the contestants in terms of their
experience of the Miss Florida pageant. So, really, you
know, it depends on those kind of issues.
Q. Any other distinctions between full board
operations and executive board operations?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, franchises are
approved at the executive board level. Those are
reviewed at the executive board level and approved
at the executive board level.
Again, unless there is an issue that is
discussed or talked about at the executive board
of those who want more input, then we will take
any matters to get information and gather
information before awarding franchises to the full
board.
Again, contractual kinds of things, the
full board has the authority, or the executive
board has the authority to approve awarding
contracts every once in awhile, again, depending
on the nature. I mentioned hotels, housing
contestants, those kinds of things where there are
significant financial impact before making a final
decision. Many times we will take that and
discuss that with the board to get their input.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Is there anything in writing, bylaws,
rules, regulations which sets out what the full board can
do and what the executive board can do?
A. Not to my knowledge. We have just general
operating practices.
Q. Those are general operating practices based
on what?
A. Based on discussions of how we feel it's
best to run an organization, specially with the group of
volunteers that are scattered out all over the State of
Florida. So it's not like you have everybody sitting
here on a daily basis and have everybody in the office
and make decisions and discuss items. So from a
functioning perspective, it's easier for us to have more
regular discussions and conversations with a smaller
group of the executive board than it is to deal with
issues that need full board attention.
When we feel they need full board
attention, then they are placed on the agenda and brought
to the full board.
Q. Who makes the decision on whether something
is brought to the full board or not brought before the
full board?
A. Probably Mary and myself. Sometimes in
conversations with Ray if it has legal implication.
He'll weigh in and give us his opinion.
Q. Will you and Mary make a decision on
whether or not something should come before either the
executive board or the full board?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there things that you and Mary decide
that have never had to be brought up before the executive
board or the full board?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Seven years. Let me think.
Just, I mean, routine things like we will talk
about she is going to St. Petersburg to set up a
series of meetings and who she needs to be meeting
with, what needs to happen on this particular
trip, those type of conversations are not things
that we would necessarily take to the full
executive board, but conversations that she would
have in preparation for her going over to see the
mayor and meet with the chamber of commerce and
those kinds of things.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Does Mary have, I guess, the authority to,
I guess, negotiate with them and to come to, I guess,
some terms with either the mayor or with the, I think you
said the chamber of commerce or hotels and stuff like
that?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes. She has authority to
negotiate. Again, I stated earlier that when it
comes time to actually execute contracts, those
need to be approved by the executive board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you have any examples of anything that
Mary has negotiated that the executive board or the full
board didn't approve?
MR. BLOCK : Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think.
One of them may be that she talked to the
chamber of commerce in St. Petersburg. They are
trying to work out some kind of financial
sponsorship contribution. That would not
necessarily require the board's approval because
Mary doesn't have the authority to say to the
board, you have to tell the chamber how much money
you are going to give us to sponsor that event,
but she would work out and say, if you negotiate
and give us a $10,000 sponsorship package, in
turn, we will provide you with a full page ad or
two full page ads in color, black and white. She
has those kinds of authority to do that from the
sponsorship perspective. It does not require like
the board's approval. She quite frequently does a
lot of fund-raising things that don't require the
board's approval in terms of who decides they are
going to give us 5,000 or 10,0000 or all those
kind of fund-raising efforts do not require board
approval. She is just reporting back to the board
on what is approved.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Is there anything in writing, rules,
regulations, bylaws or anything that you know of that
gives Mary that authority?
A. Just in general the day-to-day operations
of as I talked earlier about it being an executive
director, the day-to-day function of the organization.
There is nothing in writing that I'm aware of.
Q. You mentioned that you and her sometimes
make decisions of whether or not a matter comes before
the executive board or the full board.
Is there anything in writing that grants
you and Mary that authority over the board?
A. Just standard day-to-day operating
practice.
Q. That is just standard day-to-day operating
practice because you and Mary agree to that or you and
Mary and Rob agree to that or --
A. I think in general as the leadership of the
organization, you have day-to-day conversations about
whether things need official action, don't need official
action, and we together will make those determinations.
Q. When you say we, is it just you and Mary
then?
A. Typically. Every once in awhile we, Rob
and Keith will weigh in on the matter.
What I try to do in terms of kind of my
role as chairman is to decide when does something either
have an official vote, whether it's an executive board
vote or whether it's a full board vote, a full board
discussion. As part of my role I see as chairman is to
help guide and navigate and make those decisions if
something needs to be -- if I feel as the chairman needs
to be officially voted on in the records, the minutes,
then, you know, what I will say to Mary, I think we need
to discuss this with the executive board or we need to
take it to the full board.
Q. So, essentially, you, I guess, with Mary's
help, but you make the decisions and if you decide it
doesn't need to go before the full board, the executive
board, it's just a decision between you and Mary?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Sometimes that is what
happens and typically those things that happen
will be reported out during board meetings.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. From a percentage standpoint, seeing all
the decisions made throughout the course of one year, how
much of that percentage are decisions made by you or you
and Mary, and how many decisions are made by executive
board, and how many decisions are made by the full board?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: It's very difficult to
percentage out.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. From working with this since 2002, you
don't have maybe some idea of an average of how many
decisions were made by --
A. I would say --
MR. BLOCK: Form.
You have to let him finish the question.
I'm not even sure there is a question yet.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. The question is since 2002 through 2009,
you don't have in your mind an average of how many
decisions are made by Mary, how many decisions are made
by you and Mary, executive board and full board?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It's just very hard to
answer.
Again, the kinds of things I have already
stated, directional issues, those kinds of things,
local franchise agreements, that would all be
executive board.
If you are asking me to guess at a
percentage, I'll guess. My guess would be
50 percent executive board, 25 percent Mary and I
discussion, and 25 percent full board. That is
total pulled out of a hat.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I kind of got a little off track. Is Keith
Smith and Mark Caglia still with the board of directors?
A. No, they also resigned.
Q. Any reasons why?
A. I don't recall off the top of my head.
They sent in a letter of resignation.
MR. SANDERS: I will go ahead and make that
two pages Exhibit Number 2.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you what was introduced as
Number 17 in Mary Sullivan's deposition. It is a Miss
Florida executive board of directors meeting of
September 23, 2006. It says at the home of Mary
Sullivan, Miami, Florida. I ask you if you have ever
seen those minutes before.
A. Yes.
Q. We have talked about the board that was
listed with Tallahassee. We have talked about the full
board, and I think you mentioned an executive board.
Were the members of the executive board on September
23rd, 2006 Mary Sullivan, Richard Walker, Keith Williams
and Rob Loy?
A. Yes.
Q. Any other members of the executive board?
A. Kitty Potapow.
Q. So there were five board members for the
executive board?
A. Correct.
Q. Are there any rules, regulations or bylaws
with regards to the formation of an executive board?
A. Not to my knowledge. Well, other than it
states they are officers in the bylaws.
Q. Do you consider officers --
A. Officers of the executive board. Officers
are the executive board.
Q. Does it say in the bylaws that officers are
an executive board?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Again, if officers compose the executive
board, is it your opinion that the executive board has
more power than the full board of directors?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Ultimately, any full board of
directors has more power than an executive board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. How has Miss Florida managed that, though?
Have the larger decisions been made by the
executive board or the larger decisions made by the full
board?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Again, as previously stated,
it depends on the issue or the decision.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And, again, I know you said that you might
be guessing, it was off the cuff, but you had said Mary
makes about 25 percent of the decisions or you and Mary
make about 25 percent of the decisions, full board makes
25 percent and executive board makes about 50. So the
executive board --
A. Once again you can split in thirds, too,
and I might be right. It's a crap shoot.
Q. Even if we did the thirds, approximately
two thirds of the decisions are being made outside of the
full board. Would you agree on that?
A. Ultimately in any corporation, a full board
of directors has more inherent authority than any
executive board.
Q. Is that the way Miss Florida has been
running its board, though?
A. If there had been some decision made by the
executive board and it was taken to the full board and
presented and discussed and the full board was in total
disagreement with whatever decision, the full board could
move to have the decision changed.
Q. But using your description of the full
board, wouldn't it be more apropos that a full board
review everything and then decide to relinquish authority
to either an executive board or to officers of the
corporation to make that decision?
MR. BLOCK: Form, argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Again, it's a volunteer
organization with board members scattered all over
the state. I think we have designed a structure
of operation that serves our day-to-day
operational purposes the best.
Whether you take offense to that or not is
your right to do so.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And I haven't said anything about taking
offense to anything. I'm just trying to figure out how
you run the Miss Florida Scholarship Pageant, Inc..
MR. BLOCK: Objection to characterization,
form.
THE WITNESS: And I have answered the
question.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Okay. If you look at the second page, it
says, I guess the very last entry says that Jacksonville
franchise, it says, "Tabled - pending discussion and
input from full board in October and possible discussion
with Kevin Sanders."
Who made that entry or how did that entry
come to be in the minutes of the executive board meeting
of September 23rd, 2006?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: These minutes were taken by
Keith Williams. So he would have entered that
notation, but that was the decision at the
executive board meeting that we would not act on
that particular franchise request, and we would
seek input from the full board in the October
meeting.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I guess the question is why did the
executive board not act on that franchise, and what was
discussed, and why was it deferred to the full board?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Because there had been an
issue of concern that was posted to the Miss
Jacksonville pageant website regarding the pageant
being canceled, and so at that point in time, we
decided given the fact that this had been posted
that the pageant was canceled, that was the
pageant that -- previously, the franchise had been
held by the Miss Florida Scholarship Organization,
and so we decided at that point in time that we
should, given the circumstances of the fact that
it was posted on the website, we were not notified
that the pageant was going to be canceled, that
before this franchise was acted upon by the board,
that we need full and broad discussion from the
board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. What rule or regulation or bylaw indicates
that a franchise can't cancel its pageant without notice
to the Miss Florida board or officers?
A. An organization has the right to cancel a
pageant or franchise, but we had not even yet awarded the
franchise officially to the Miss North Florida
Scholarship Organization.
Yes, a franchise had been submitted
indicating that there was a desire to have a pageant.
The date have been set. My understanding was
contestants, individuals had applied to be contestants
and then this appeared on the website.
Q. How did you come to the understanding that
people had submitted applications to participate in the
pageant?
A. Because on the posting on the website it
indicated that there -- if I remember it correctly was
that there had been some people that had entered but not
enough.
Q. Again, I'm not quite sure you answered the
question directly, but is there a rule or a regulation
governing franchises that says they can't cancel a
pageant when they don't have enough contestants?
A. Sure. There is nothing that says you
cannot cancel a pageant if you don't have contestants.
However, you know, when you are part of a larger
organizational structure, I think the common courtesy
would be to notify the organization which you are a part
of and say, look, we are having a problem getting
contestants, we can't get enough, we think it will be in
our best interest not to try to hold this pageant, rather
than posting a thing on the website and then Mss Florida
pageant starts getting contacted where individuals think
that now this pageant is being canceled.
Q. So it's a matter of common courtesy, not a
rule or regulation or anything?
A. I would agree with that.
Q. This rule of common courtesy was the reason
why the executive board then decided to postpone awarding
the franchise to defer to the full board?
A. If I remember correctly, and this has been
awhile ago. I'm getting old, older. There also had been
another franchise that had been submitted with regard to
the Miss Jacksonville pageant.
Q. It doesn't say that.
A. No, it doesn't.
Q. Does it?
A. No, it doesn't, but there were two requests
on the table if I remember correctly.
Q. What was the intended discussion with the
full board with regards to this franchise?
Was it the fact that common courtesy wasn't
employed or what was the intent to discuss with the full
board when it was deferred to the full board?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: If my memory serves me
correct, the concern was the message that got
posted to the board basically said, paraphrasing,
that Miss North Florida Scholarship Organization
would not be sponsoring the pageant this year.
That Cammie had decided not to be involved in this
program any more. Therefore, they were not going
to be holding the pageant. Paraphrasing again, it
didn't reference contestants, concern for the
number of contestants. Again, the manner, and
then it said -- so the manner in which that
particular issue was handled was of concern to the
board, to the executive board, and the fact that
now we had another franchise in front of us. So
now we had a predicament because we now had two
people requesting to hold the pageant.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Those are the only reasons that you can
recall?
A. Because of the volatile nature of just the
way this all transpired was of concern to the executive
board.
Q. Well, describe to me this volatile nature
of the way it all transpired.
A. Just the actual posting on the website in
terms of one day the website is up saying, we are having
a pageant, here is how you become a part of the pageant,
et cetera. The next thing we know this posting is up.
Kevin and Cammie are going to get out of the pageant, we
are not going to do this any more, et cetera.
Again, I think there was just concern in
general of how that was handled and also the fact that we
now had franchises in front of us that we felt, things
the board felt it should be a matter of the whole board
should plan.
Q. Has any other franchise canceled their
pageant without notifying the Miss Florida pageant and
still receive their franchise?
A. Canceled their pageant and still receive
their franchise?
Q. Well, canceled, rescheduled or whatever
their pageant.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, others when
they have canceled their pageant particularly
notified the Miss Florida pageant before canceling
the pageant.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But there have been some that haven't?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I do not recall.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So your testimony is today you don't recall
if somebody may have postponed or canceled a pageant and
still retained the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm thinking back. The only
one instance I can think of is Miss Orlando and if
I recall the circumstances, they submitted a
franchise. They paid the fee and then they
decided they did not want to hold the pageant and
if I recall the discussion from the board was we
couldn't guarantee them their pageant for the
following year.
Basically, they were requesting to say we
don't want to lose the name of the pageant.
Therefore, we are going to pay this franchise fee
and award the franchise, so we want to secure the
pageant. We don't want to lose the title, and if
I remember, they were told that that cannot be a
guarantee. That if someone else came forward and
wanted to run Miss Orlando then the board would
have to take that into consideration.
That is the only one I can think of the way
your question has come.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Now I'm looking at this and it says, "And
possible discussion with Kevin Sanders." What was the
intended discussion with Kevin Sanders that you can
recall from the executive board meeting?
MR. BLOCK: Again, objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Depending on how the
discussion with the board went, would be
determining whether or not we made a decision that
we wanted to talk with you in person.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Again, since I'm acting as attorney --
A. With Kevin Sanders. I'm sorry.
Q. So that was just a tentative discussion
with Kevin Sanders?
A. Correct.
Q. That was pending discussion with the full
board?
A. Correct.
Q. Did anyone that you know of send Kevin
Sanders a copy of these minutes or inform Kevin Sanders
of the executive board's decision at that time?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, not that
I recollect.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If Kevin Sanders was under the impression
that the franchise was going to be awarded and was
setting up a pageant for later on, what safeguards does
Miss Florida have in place to insure that a pageant that
may not be awarded a franchise doesn't spin its wheels
and expend money and costs that are unnecessary if they
are not awarded the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I am not sure exactly what
you are getting at, but at this point in time on
September 23rd of 2006, the Miss Florida pageant
had not executed a franchise with Kevin Sanders to
actually hold that.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Again, you don't execute a lot of the
franchises with other pageants but they still go on
planning their pageants assuming that the franchise is
going to be executed; do they not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, foundation.
THE WITNESS: Franchises are granted on a
year to year basis and people have to apply for
their franchise on an annual basis.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But franchises are generally automatically
renewed; are they not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, they are acted on on
an annual basis.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But they are usually automatically renewed
for the holder of the franchise or when they resubmit for
the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Object to the form.
THE WITNESS: Typically, that is probably
the case unless there is some issue of concern
that has arisen over the course of the last year
that would require a different decision.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. In fact, there are several franchise
holders that have been renewed ten years in a row, 15
years in a row, 20 years in a row; am I correct?
A. I can only speak for the last seven years.
Yes, there are some who are routinely for
the last seven years renewed.
Q. Do you know any that were in place prior to
you and Mary and Rob and whoever else that is a board
member took over the franchise?
A. I can only -- can you repeat that for me?
I am sorry.
Q. Let me just cite some examples. Bob Clark,
Tampa pageant, how long has he been around? Do you know?
A. He has been around longer than 2002.
Q. Do you know how long he has been around?
A. I do not know the number of years.
Q. Ruth Sidbury, how long has she been around?
A. Longer than since 2002.
Q. Would you know how many years she has been
around?
A. Not in total, no.
Q. Do you know of any other executive
directors that have pretty much had a franchise renewed
every year even before you took over the pageant?
A. I am trying to think. The two you just
mentioned, Bob Clark and Ruth, are probably two of our
long standing directors way before my time on the board.
Barbara Gyseberg, Miss Palm Beach County
would be another one that has been probably over
30 years. We can go up the coast. Those are probably
the three longest that are currently.
Q. To your knowledge, has Ruth Sidbury ever
been without a Miss Florida franchise?
A. Define ever been without.
Q. Since you have been involved in the state
system. I know you were involved in the state system
prior to being part of the corporation that now runs the
state pageant.
Since your involvement, has she ever been
without a franchise?
A. I do not know. It's possible. I don't
have her record, track record memorized.
Q. Are you familiar with history of Ruth when
Patty Adeeb accused her of using the N word to describe
black contestants in a local --
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: I am aware there was an
allegation. I do not know any specifics regarding
that situation.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know if Ruth Sidbury ever lost her
franchise or any franchise because of the accusations at
that time?
A. Again, I am not certain of that.
Q. Do you know or do you recall that it was
Patty Adeeb who made those accusations against Ruth
Sidbury?
A. Again, I just knew there was an allegation.
I don't recall if I remember it was Patty Adeeb or not,
but I don't know the specifics of that situation.
Q. Would you consider using the N word to
describe black contestants in a pageant something
significant enough that this executive board should take
into consideration before awarding a franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: I personally -- if you are
asking me personally, personally I would find the
use of the N word offensive.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. As a board member, would your personal
feelings influence how you would discuss the matter in
regards to determining whether or not an alleged
executive director would receive a franchise or renew a
franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: If this alleged incident
occurred, obviously, part of what I would consider
personally would be if it did occur, what was the
outcome of the situation and how it was resolved,
and that to me also would weigh in on any
decisions that I might make with regard to this.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So you would want to, I guess, sit down and
discuss with Ruth Sidbury or however had been accused of
doing something to find out their side of the story
before you made a decision?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Personally, I would like to
have some information if someone could provide it.
It doesn't mean I have to personally sit down with
her, but in terms of the outcome of the situation.
Again, I wasn't directly involved in the
allegation, so I have no specific --
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. While we are on Ruth, what are the
franchise holder's responsibility to Miss Florida with
regards to their accounts and their fund-raising and
their scholarships?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: The actual accounts with
regard to a local pageant are the responsibility
of the local pageant and that corporation holds
that responsibility financially.
The franchise agreement indicates that the
local corporation must at a minimum award a $500
scholarship to their winner, must be able to
maintain that scholarship payment. They must have
scholarship rules as far as their contestant's
contract that says how those scholarships will be
awarded, and what is the procedure for a
contestant claiming those obligations. So they
have to financially do that.
They also must submit on an annual -- it
used to be quarterly, now it's been semi-annual.
I think they went to annual scholarship report,
indicating what scholarships have been awarded
within the past year and any scholarships that are
pending and still have not been claimed by the
contestants. They are required to submit an
annual report regarding that scholarship function.
MR. BLOCK: I have to feed the meter at
2:00 o'clock and I have to find quarters.
We are getting close. I mean, 3:00
o'clock, because it will be two hours.
You want to wait a few more questions or
you want to take a break now?
MR. SANDERS: Whatever you want. I can do
a few more questions or you want to break now. I
just don't know when you are --
MR. BLOCK: I just don't want to get a
ticket.
MR. SANDERS: Let me maybe just complete
this thought with Ruth.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Did you know that Ruth Sidbury or, I guess,
the Miss Jacksonville franchise was with Ruth Sidbury at
one point in time?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know that Kevin and Cammie worked
with Ruth Sidbury during that time?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. Do you know that the Miss Jacksonville
franchise was at one point awarded to Kevin and Cammie
Sanders and taken away from Ruth Sidbury?
A. Yes. The Miss Jacksonville pageant
franchise was awarded to a different corporation other
than the corporation that Ruth was involved, which I
believe was Miss Jacksonville Scholarship Foundation.
Q. How did that happen? What was the thinking
behind that?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: You are testing my memory.
If I will recall, a similar situation. We had two
franchises presented for the same pageant. One
for the Miss North Florida Scholarship
Organization, which the executive directors were
listed as Kevin and Cammie Sanders, and one by
Ruth Sidbury from the Miss Jacksonville
Scholarship Foundation.
And the decision was made by the board at
that time to award it to Kevin and Cammie.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you recall why it was awarded to Kevin
add Cammie over Ruth Sidbury who had had the franchise
significant length of time prior to that?
A. You are testing my memory. In 2002,
2003 -- I'm thinking out loud. I'm not responding. I'm
thinking out loud.
MR. BLOCK: She records if you think out
loud.
THE WITNESS: Sorry about that.
I don't recall the actual final discussion
in details. I truthfully do not.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. That is an answer.
Ruth was awarded a franchise, though. She
went with River City Jacksonville pageant?
A. Correct, she was.
Q. At any point in time, did Mary Sullivan
indicate to you or to the executive board the reason why
the Miss Jacksonville pageant was being awarded to a
different organization under Cammie and Kevin Sanders was
because Ruth Sidbury never provided any financial
information to her current board?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I recall, now that you said
that, I recall there was some conversation about
why Kevin and Cammie felt it necessary to form a
separate corporation. Again, the details of that
conversation, I do not know, but I knew there were
some issues that were brought to us by Kevin and
Cammie regarding the operations of Ruth's
corporation.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know if any of those financial
concerns have ever been investigated by the Miss Florida
organization or have otherwise been resolved by Ruth's
organization, which is the Jacksonville Scholarship
Foundation?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: Right off the top of my head,
I couldn't tell you.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. As you know, I have been taking a lot of
depositions in this case. We took the deposition of Ruth
Sidbury. Ruth Sidbury acknowledged under oath in her
deposition that she has never provided a financial
accounting to any of her boards since she has been
running her franchise. If what I am saying to you is
true, and, of course, the record speaks for itself, would
that cause you, first, any surprises?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: Again, in terms of the
structure of how a local pageant board operates
and functions would be the right and privilege of
that board to operate and function.
The Miss Florida organization would not
intervene and tell a local corporation running a
local pageant how they should function as a
corporation.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. The financial status of the company, Miss
Florida has no interest in?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: What Miss Florida has an
interest in is the annual reporting that it must
meet. At the time, I think it was semi-annually.
It was quarterly as I mentioned. Now it's annual
reporting of the scholarship account balances and
the money owed to contestants.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So maybe you already answered this
question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
Would you as an executive board member or
as the CEO and chairman of the board have concerns with a
franchise holder that does not account for where the
money comes and goes?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Again, unless it's
specifically related to the payment of the
required $500 scholarship or any other scholarship
that they were awarding in the day-to-day
operations, et cetera, within how that corporation
operates would be between its board of directors.
MR. BLOCK: Okay. I have to ask for the
break now because I'm going to get a ticket.
(Recess taken.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Back to the minutes of September 23rd, do
you or do you not recall what the discussion was
regarding the North Florida Scholarship Organization, the
Miss Jacksonville franchise, Kevin Sanders or whatever
was discussed that made that franchise be tabled?
A. Again, as I previously stated, it had to do
with the posting to the Miss Jacksonville's website that
the pageant was being canceled.
Q. That is strictly it?
A. That and the fact that now there were two
franchises applied for for the Miss Jacksonville pageant.
Q. But, again, those minutes don't reflect
that?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever actually see the Miss
Jacksonville website or are you describing something that
was printed or copied to you or otherwise sent to you?
A. I saw the Miss Jacksonville website.
Q. Do you recall when you saw the Miss
Jacksonville website?
A. No, I don't recall the date right off the
top of my head.
Q. Do you recall how long the website had the
things that I think you paraphrased up on it.
A. No, I don't recall how long it was up.
Q. Have you been able to think of any rule or
regulation or bylaw or anything that requires franchises
so give notice first to Miss Florida before canceling a
pageant?
A. Nothing that I can think of right off the
top of my head that specifically states that, but it
would say, I think the franchise indicates that by
awarding of the franchise, the organization agrees to
have a contestant enter the Miss Florida pageant. So,
obviously, canceling the pageant, you would not be
submitting a contestant to the pageant. The language
something along that line.
Q. That is an interesting comment. Was it
your understanding on September 23rd, 2006 that the
pageant had been totally canceled and was not going
forward?
A. Again dates are all -- I don't know. It is
a long time ago.
Q. Let me ask it a different way.
If it was your opinion that the Miss
Jacksonville pageant had been totally canceled and hadn't
been rescheduled, would there be any purpose to tabling
the discussion with regards to the North Florida
Scholarship Organization's request for the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, you are asking me a
hypothetical. If the pageant had not been
canceled, you are saying everything was moving
forward as scheduled, then there probably would
have been no calls.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. It wasn't really a hypothetical the way I
asked it. I was, I guess, arguing the point backwards.
My first question was: Did you recall
whether or not the pageant was totally canceled never to
be rescheduled, and you said you didn't recall.
And so my next question then was: Well,
would there have been any reason to have postponed making
decision on the franchise if it was your understanding on
September 23rd that there was never going to be a
pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form,
characterization.
THE WITNESS: Let me go back to what I
recall being posted to the website. That the
pageant was being canceled, that Cammie wanted no
more involvement with the program, that Kevin and
Cammie had enjoyed being a part of the system but
were no longer going to be part of the system and
were not going to be running the pageant any
longer. There was a comment, statement something
to the effect that there were individuals who
still had scholarship money pending. Contact
Kevin Sanders regarding those scholarships, and
there was a reference, as I recall, in the posting
that Jennifer and/or Jeff Herrington had expressed
some interest in taking over the pageant. It
clearly implied that Kevin and Cammie were not
interested in the pageant, and were not going to
have the pageant.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Now, a couple of things I need to ask you
on it because your memory seemed to be a little better
the second time than the first time.
The first question is: Do you know who
posted that on the website?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I do not know personally who
posted on the website. It was signed at the
bottom Kevin Sanders.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If it was posted on the website, I think
you basically said if you have scholarship, contact Kevin
Sanders, would that imply that the North Florida
Scholarship Organization continued to exist and was being
run?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There was no indication that
the Miss Florida Scholarship Incorporated
corporation was being dissolved. It doesn't state
that. It simply stated that they there would not
be a Miss Jacksonville pageant and that Kevin and
Cammie Sanders were no longer going to be
involved.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Now, aren't the franchises awarded to the
organizations.
A. They are awarded to organizations with an
executive director specified in the organization.
Q. So they are not awarded to Ruth Sidbury or
to Bob Clark. They are awarded to the organizations that
may be either run by Ruth Sidbury or Bob Clark; is that
correct?
A. They are awarded to the organization or
corporation with a specific person specified to be the
executive director.
Q. And so you acknowledge that the
organization at least as far as the website was concerned
had not dissolved itself, it still existed?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form and
foundation.
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, the
organization existed.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. On September 23rd, 2006, had Mary Sullivan
indicated to you or any of the other executive board
members any discussions that she had had either with
Kevin Sanders, Ray McLeod or both Kevin Sanders and Ray
McLeod?
MR. BLOCK: Same objection, form.
THE WITNESS: To my recollection, she
indicated there had been a conversation on the
telephone with Kevin Sanders, Mary Sullivan and
Ray McLeod regarding the situation which had
occurred in the cancellation of the pageant.
She indicated that Kevin Sanders had
expressed that he may want to go ahead in holding
the Miss Jacksonville pageant without Cammie. She
indicated that in the conversation, Kevin was
instructed to submit a franchise that would be
reviewed by the executive board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Anything else?
A. That is my recollection of the gist of the
conversation.
Q. Did she provide to you or the executive
board any e-mails sent between her, Ray McLeod and Kevin
Sanders with regards to the franchise?
A. I do recall I think that she indicated that
she had followed up that phone conversation with an
e-mail. I do not recall if I actually at that point on
September 23rd had seen the e-mail indicating that the
conversation had occurred, and that she had instructed
Kevin to submit the franchise.
Q. Based on your description of her powers and
authority, did she have the power and authority to enter
into that discussion with Ray McLeod, Kevin Sanders with
regards to the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: She has the authority to have
a discussion with anybody who is interested in
submitting a franchise, to discuss the process for
submitting the franchise. She does not have
authority to grant approval of the franchise.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. She has authority to discuss terms and
conditions with regards to granting of the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Terms and conditions of a
franchise are spelled out in the franchise. Those
are the terms and conditions that anybody, they
are all the same standard terms and conditions for
any franchise holder.
In terms of she only has the authority to
tell the process, talk about what is involved in
running a pageant, submit the process, the
paperwork. The executive board has the authority
to actually grant the franchise.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Well, now, are the terms and conditions of
granting the franchise in the franchise agreement itself?
A. When you say the terms and conditions of
granting a franchise --
Q. I am just repeating what I thought was your
statement. I thought I asked if Mary Sullivan had the
authority to talk about terms and conditions of granting
a franchise and I think your statement was that the terms
and conditions of granting the franchise are within the
franchise agreement.
A. No. I didn't mean terms and conditions.
The terms of a franchise. In other words, obligations
from the Miss Florida pageant to the franchise holder,
obligation of the franchise holder to the Miss Florida
pageant is what I was referring to.
Q. Is there anything in the franchise
agreement which would indicate the basis upon which a
franchise is either granted or denied?
A. There is nothing specific in terms of what
is reviewed and determined that is spelled out in the
franchise, no.
Q. Is there anything in writing, bylaws,
rules, regulations or anything with regards to the
procedure for granting or denying a franchise?
A. Not in writing that I am aware of.
Q. How is a franchise either granted or denied
then, and how did that come into being?
A. It's general operating practice.
Q. Again, you have used that term before.
That is stuff, I guess, put together by you and Mary and
maybe a couple of the executive board members?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Just the general way we
operate and function as a volunteer organization.
The things that we would look for is we want to
always make sure that anybody submitting a
franchise has the ability and means to be
successful. We want to make sure that the
programs that we are running is a group, is a
group organization. An individual in terms of the
organization that is asking for the franchise and
the person being designated as the executive
director understands the obligations as to the
terms that are spelled out in the franchise.
In terms of having to run a pageant, you
have to be able to award a minimum of $500 to each
contestant. There is a $650 franchise fee which
has to be paid. We go over the fact that there
are obligations to make sure that the contestants
are attending an orientation session, and the
corporation has a responsibility for covering
those expenses during orientation weekend. Again,
making sure the contestant it ready and prepared
to compete in the Miss Florida pageant.
So we discuss venues, what can and cannot
occur with regard to helping with fund-raising.
The Miss America organization does not allow
charging of entry fees, those kind of things. We
make sure all those guidelines are understood by
someone that is requesting the franchise.
We make sure that they have if they are
not -- if it's a city or university, there are
specific requirements that they don't have to have
a separate corporation or festival. If it's not
and it's just individuals who want to apply for a
franchise, they have to form an actual corporation
in the State of Florida. So they have to be
incorporated. They have to be structured.
So what we do is make sure we are real
clear on what the expectations are from the Miss
Florida pageant to our franchise holder and make
sure all the questions are answered for that
franchise holder. We typically if it's someone we
are not familiar with, we would ask them to
probably submit a resume for themselves as the
executive director and any board members. Again,
make sure what the background is of the
individuals that are applying for the franchise.
So all those things are taken into consideration
when we are awarding a franchise.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. What, if anything, then, was lacking out of
this list that the North Florida Scholarship Organization
or Kevin Sanders as the executive director, what was
missing out of the list that you just said?
A. I think getting back to the concern that
had been expressed was that the manner in which it was
posted as it was going to be canceled, in terms of how
that had been handled. The fact that that was not
discussed or communicated in advance. The fact that it
had been made perfectly clear to me and to others on the
executive board through the posting of that message that
Kevin and Cammie Sanders were done, they were finished
with producing the pageant.
Now, all of a sudden, there is a change of
heart, a regrouping. So all of those are things that,
again, things that we discussed and felt like we needed
more input and discussion.
Q. That is why you, I guess, decided to have a
full executive board meeting?
One second. I have to keep these words
right.
That is why you decided to take everything
to the full board?
A. Correct.
Q. And that was an executive board decision to
take it to the full board?
A. Yes, it was.
MR. SANDERS: I believe this is Number 3.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you a one, two, three, four
page exhibit. It's titled Miss Florida Pageant Board of
Directors Meeting, October 13, 2006, Orlando, Florida and
ask you if you recognize those minutes?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that the minutes of the meeting of the
full board that the Jacksonville franchise was tabled to
be heard in front of?
A. Yes.
Q. It lists who the board members were that
were present and the board members that were ex officio
and the board members that were absent; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Interestingly enough, it says a guest, Rick
Brinkley was there. Are guests allowed at the full board
meeting?
A. Periodically, we have had people come in as
guests. Rick was also there to conduct a judge's
workshop the following day.
Q. Was Kevin Sanders or anybody from the North
Florida Scholarship Organization requested to attend this
board meeting so that the discussions could be had as
indicated in the September 23rd, 2006 executive minutes?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: No, they were not.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. When you say, no, they were not, nobody
from --
A. No one from the North Florida Scholarship
Organization.
Q. Is there a reason why no one from the North
Florida Scholarship Organization was invited to this
meeting?
A. If you recall the minutes of September 23,
2006, it said a possible discussion with Kevin Sanders.
Q. In your previous discussion about Ruth and
whether or not she may or may not have used the N word,
you were saying that you would think it would really
depend on having a full discussion of people
knowledgeable on the fact; is that correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. State your question
again.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. When the discussion of Ruth, you had said
with regards to your consideration of whether or not to
grant her a franchise based on whether or not she used
the N word that you would like to have full information
about the situation. Isn't that something like what you
said?
MR. BLOCK: Form, characterization.
THE WITNESS: You asked me the question of
if someone had used the N word, how would that
weigh in personally to my decision-making process.
I also indicated in my earlier answer that
I was not a part of that situation when that
allegedly occurred, whatever year that occurred
in, but, personally, I would personally want to
know the outcome of how the situation was
resolved. That was my response.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Well, would you not want to know the
information, the outcome of, I guess, the website in your
discussions on whether or not to renew a franchise?
A. That is possible, but, again, as stated in
the September 23rd, 2006 minutes, it indicated a possible
discussion with Kevin Sanders to occur.
Q. And Kevin Sanders was never notified of
this meeting?
A. Kevin Sanders was not notified of this
meeting.
Q. Kevin Sanders wasn't even informed of this
meeting was being heard, was he?
A. No, Kevin Sanders was not.
Q. Now, what was discussed at this meeting and
by who with regards to the Jacksonville franchise?
A. As stated in the minutes of Miss Florida
board of directors, October 13, 2006, the minutes reflect
the following: "Richard informed the board that there
had been two franchises received for the Miss
Jacksonville Pageant. One submitted by the Miss North
Florida Scholarship Organization, Kevin Sanders listed as
the Executive Director, and one by the Miss Jacksonville
Scholarship Foundation, Ruth Sidbury listed as the
Executive Director. Richard indicated that the Executive
Board had tabled action on this franchise request in
order for the full board of directors to have an
opportunity to provide input given the fact that it had
been indicated by Kevin Sanders through a posting on the
Miss Jacksonville website that the pageant scheduled for
October had been canceled and that he and Cammie would no
longer be running the pageant. Many members of the board
voiced their concerns with granting Kevin the franchise.
There was no one who indicated they were in favor of
awarding the franchise to Kevin. Many indicated that
they felt since there was another option, then the
franchise should be awarded to Ruth. Richard indicated
that the Executive Board would take all the comments
under consideration and that the Executive Board hoped to
have the opportunity to speak with Kevin Sanders prior to
the start of Franchise Meeting scheduled for the next day
before making a final decision."
That is what is reflected in the minutes of
that meeting.
Q. Outside what is reflected in the minutes,
what do you independently recall of the discussion on
that day?
A. Basically, the general discussion was that
given the circumstances of what has transpired with the
posting of the cancellation and the way that matter had
been handled, the board members who spoke and voiced
their opinion indicated they were not in favor of
awarding ahead the franchise to Miss Florida to the North
Florida Scholarship Organization.
Q. On what did they base that information in
order to draw such a conclusion or opinion?
A. Basically, I think it was presented, if I
recall correctly, what was actually posted to the website
about the cancellation and I know some of them had
indicated they had actually seen it on the website.
Q. Was it printed and passed around or just
paraphrased?
A. It wasn't passed around. I think it was
generally paraphrased.
Q. So no one actually had a copy?
A. They could have. I don't recall. It's
possible.
Q. It wasn't passed out by you or Mary or Rob
Loy or Keith Williams?
A. To my knowledge, it was not passed out.
Q. Now, was there any discussion at this full
board meeting from Mary or from you with regards to the
discussion with Kevin Sanders and Ray McLeod and Mary
Sullivan?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again based on recollection,
testing my memory, I think there was an indication
that there had been a telephone conversation with
Ray, Kevin and Mary, and that since the original
posting that Kevin and Cammie were no longer
interested, that Kevin had expressed an interest
and Mary indicated that Kevin had been instructed
to submit the franchise.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Did Mary Sullivan or anybody submit the
e-mails that had gone back and forth between Mary and Ray
McLeod and Mary Sullivan and Kevin Sanders?
A. I don't recall.
Q. If there had been, would there have been a
reference to such in the minutes somewhere?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't
recall. I don't recall that being submitted, so I
cannot comment on whether it would have been
reflected in the minutes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If I were to tell you that in Mr. Williams'
deposition he indicated that if such had been discussed,
he would have reflected it in the minutes, would that
help you in any way?
A. Mr. Williams was not present at this
meeting.
Q. Do you know who took the minutes then?
A. I actually took the notes for this
particular meeting.
Q. So it could have been discussed and you
just didn't put that down?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Was anything discussed at this meeting with
regards to Ruth using the N word or being accused of
using the N word?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Was anything discussed at this meeting with
regards to the reason why Ruth originally had the Miss
Jacksonville franchise taken away from her with regards
to finances?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. So the full board actually didn't have the
full facts when it made its recommendation not to award
the franchise to the North Florida Scholarship
Organization?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: If you are asking me, the
board had whatever information was presented to
them.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If it wasn't presented e-mails between
Kevin Sanders and Mary Sullivan and e-mails between Mary
Sullivan and Ray McLeod, the board didn't have that to
consider, did it?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You asked me the question. I
indicated it was mentioned by Mary that the
conversation had occurred between Kevin, Ray and
Mary.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But that is a conversation.
A. I don't recall if the actual e-mail to my
recollection, I guess to the best of my recollection, I
do not recall that being presented.
Q. And I think your recollection was that no
one brought up any negatives about Ruth Sidbury and the
Jacksonville scholarship organization of past accusations
or financial troubles?
A. Not that I recall, correct.
Q. Again, I ask the question. The full
circumstances of the two organizations vying for the Miss
Jacksonville title weren't fully discussed at this
meeting?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That would be your opinion
whether or not they were fully discussed.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Well, is there anything that was discussed
that you haven't told me about today?
A. Again, to the best of my recollection.
That was two and a half years ago. It's been two and a
half years ago.
Q. Just the way you answered that question is
like to the best of your recollection there is nothing
else that was discussed other than what you have
testified to here today?
A. To the best of my recollection, that would
be correct.
Q. Let me just ask, at this meeting, do you
recall anything being discussed with regards to matters
or things that may have been either indicated or said by
Jennifer Herrington or said by Jennifer Herrington to any
of the board members?
A. That is a possibility. Again, specifics, I
do not recall.
Q. Do you know who brought those to the
attention of the board?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. Well, you would recall if it was you. So
it wouldn't have been you bringing that up?
A. I personally don't recall bringing it up.
Q. And you don't recall Mary Sullivan bringing
that up?
A. Again, two and a half years ago, I don't
recall every specific piece of that conversation at the
board meeting.
Q. And do you have any inkling of what the
discussions were with regards to Jennifer Herrington?
A. The only thing I recall was that there had
been a conversation with Jennifer Herrington that related
similar to what was posted on the website. Again, not
remembering details but it had something to do with
whether Jennifer and Jeff were interested in the pageant.
I don't recall anything beyond that. It doesn't mean it
didn't happen. It just means I don't recall it.
MR. SANDERS: The four page exhibit will be
Number 4.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me go back real quick. I'll give it to
you if you need to look at it. Let's see. You read it.
It said, "Richard indicated that the Executive Board
would take all the comments under consideration and that
the Executive Board hoped to have the opportunity to
speak to Kevin Sanders prior to the start of Franchise
Meeting scheduled for the next day."
Did anyone send the notice to Kevin Sanders
about the executive board wanting to meet with him prior
to the franchise?
A. No, no one sent the notice.
Q. Did anyone call or contact anyone at the
North Florida Scholarship Organization about desiring to
meet with or discuss matters with Kevin Sanders?
A. Not to my recollection.
I think the reason that was indicated is,
if I recall, Mary, I think, indicated that you had
indicated that -- sorry -- that Kevin Sanders was going
to be in attendance at the franchise meeting.
Q. Okay. But the indication was to have a
discussion with Kevin Sanders prior to making decision by
the executive board on the franchise?
A. Correct.
Q. What was the discussion supposed to be
about?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, to have -- my feeling
was that we ought to probably have a -- try to
have a face-to-face conversation about what was
posted, the sudden change of heart in terms of why
the sudden change of heart, and if this were to
happen, is this going to happen, it's going to get
canceled again, are we going to be facing another
situation, or not canceling again. So those were
just some of the things that we were thinking
about. We would be probably better off to have
the opportunity to discuss with Kevin Sanders.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Well, now, Kevin Sanders and Cammie Sanders
had been running the Miss Jacksonville pageant for quite
some time; had they not?
A. For several years, yes.
Q. They also ran what, I guess, is called a
stack pageant. They had Miss First Coast pageant that
they had been running for several years also?
A. That is correct.
Q. And at some point, both Kevin Sanders and
Cammie Sanders were recognized as outstanding directors;
were they not?
A. That is correct.
Q. What are the qualifications for being
recognized as outstanding directors?
A. Typically in terms of outstanding
directors, we look at dedication and commitment to the
system, the way someone continuously has good production,
recruits good contestants, raises good scholarship, award
scholarship money, is supportive of the Miss Florida
pageant in general, in terms of their commitment to the
organization. Those are the kind of general things that
are looked at.
Q. With that in mind, with Kevin Sanders as
the sole director, you knew Kevin Sanders had experience
to put on a pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You knew that Kevin Sanders had put on many
pageants before?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That is right.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And you knew that Kevin Sanders had a
commitment to the Miss Florida organization?
A. That is correct.
Q. You knew that Kevin Sanders through these
pageants had produced some pretty good contestants for
Miss Florida?
A. That is correct.
Q. So what additional questions, then, did you
have of Kevin Sanders prior to making the decision on the
franchise?
A. Again, I think there was a desire to
possibly have a face-to-face conversation about what had
transpired that caused the posting and the cancellation
of the pageant suddenly. Some concern in terms of the
organization and the commitment without Cammie's
involvement would that still be there in terms of running
the whole organization. Again, wanting to make sure
because this already occurred once, we wanted to make
sure that if it was awarded again, it would not happen
again a couple of months down the line in terms of the
structure. So I think those were just general questions
that were still left hanging.
Q. Did Mary Sullivan not mention any of the
discussions, then, between herself, Kevin Sanders and Ray
McLeod and the reasoning that went into at that point in
time e-mails that went back and forth with regards to
indicating the North Florida Scholarship Organization
would retain the Miss Jacksonville pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection, form, asked and
answered.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat your
question? That threw me off.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Other than, I guess, Mary Sullivan saying
she talked with Kevin Sanders and Ray McLeod, did she
provide the executive board or the full board with any
details of that discussion?
MR. BLOCK: Objection, asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Again, to the best of my
recollection was she indicated that, you know, you
were willing to go forward with this without
Cammie -- sorry -- Kevin had the desire to go
ahead and do it and move forward without Cammie's
involvement. I think that was the general gist of
what I remember.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So your concern or the executive board's
concern is then for the meeting with Kevin Sanders is
still what happened to the website even though Kevin
Sanders has indicated a willingness to go forward?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, I think part of the
concern was just the way that whole thing had
transpired, and the way it had come out to the
public, and the way it had been handled because,
again, a local franchise is granted the authority
to exist by the Miss Florida Scholarship
Organization. So when these kind of things
happen, people look to the Miss Florida
organization and what are the answers to the
questions. In this particular situation, we don't
always all know those answers to those questions,
the intricacy of what occurred to arrive at this
decision to unfold the way it unfolded, and I
think the general thinking in my mind was to have
a face-to-face conversation, not telephone,
e-mails, et cetera before making the decision.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So let me just ask it a different way.
Mary Sullivan didn't mention to you that she had had
discussions with Kevin Sanders as to the reason why the
pageant was canceled?
A. She may have. I don't recall. I don't
recall if she did any of the details.
Q. And Mary Sullivan either did or didn't
discuss with you or the full board or the executive board
the reasons why Cammie was no longer going to
participate?
A. She may have. I don't recall any
specifics.
Q. If she may have, assuming then that she
did, what additional questions did you have of Kevin
Sanders then at the meeting prior to the franchise
agreement?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: The same thing I had, the
same thing I stated already in that I felt it
would be to have a face-to-face interaction with
you -- with Kevin -- I'm sorry -- with regard to
all of the information that had been -- if
anything had been relayed or conversations had
been relayed. I think I was looking, kind of
maybe taking a more humanistic approach to have a
face-to-face conversation about issues, not, you
know, e-mails, telephone conversations, et cetera,
because those had not been with the entire --
whatever had been relayed or discussed with Mary
or Ray had not been discussed directly with you
and the people on the executive board that would
be making the decision.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another set of minutes that
say -- it's on a single sheet. It was Plaintiff's
Exhibit Number 19 in the Sullivan deposition. It says
Miss Florida Executive Board of Directors Meeting,
October 14, 2006, University of Central Florida, Orlando,
Florida.
I ask you to look at that and tell me if
you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you take those minutes?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And present were Mary Sullivan, Richard
Walker, Rob Loy and Kitty Potapow.
A. And Ray McLeod.
Q. And Ray McLeod, and Keith Williams was
absent.
A. That is correct.
Q. Again, no notice of this meeting was given
to Kevin Sanders or he wasn't told to report to this
meeting or to show up early to meet with the board, was
there?
A. No, he was not.
Q. You indicate in the one, two, three, fourth
paragraph, it starts off "The Executive Board." Do you
see that?
A. Uh-huh, yes.
Q. It says, "The Executive Board discussed the
matter and decided that based on the input and opinions
of the full board at last nights meeting that we should
move forward with making a decision."
Do you recall what the input and the
opinions are that you were thinking about at that time?
A. Again, going back to when it was open for
discussion at the full board meeting on the 13th, the
general discussion was the concern about the posting to
the website, how the situation had been handled. There
was nobody who spoke up at that particular board meeting
in favor of awarding it to Kevin Sanders and the
Miss North Florida Scholarship Organization. People
voiced an opinion, actually, at that meeting, I think,
that it should not be awarded to Kevin.
Q. But the full board never voted on that, did
they?
A. They didn't vote, no.
Q. And it was only the executive board and
there was only four members of the executive board
present when that vote was taken?
A. Yes, the executive board votes in awarding
the franchises.
Q. But we don't have any rules or regulations
or bylaws that say that, do we?
A. No, we don't.
Q. I think you already acknowledged earlier in
your testimony it's typical in organizations like this
that the full board votes on decision for the
corporation?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: It depends on the way we
structure. It depends on what the decisions are
that need to be made. Our standard operating
procedure for franchises is they are voted upon by
the executive board.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. That standard operating procedure was
developed by you and Mary Sullivan?
A. And agreed to by our executive board and
our board. No one has objected to the standard operating
procedure.
Q. At what meeting of the executive board or
the full board would those standard operating procedures
have been voted on and agreed to?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Standard operating procedures
as voted upon and agreed. They were discussed. I
can't recall the specific meeting where it was
voted on.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. It's a possibility that the full board
hadn't approved any of these general operating procedures
that you are discussing?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I do recall at some point how
we handled and operated franchises was mentioned
and no one had any objection to the way that we
would operate these cases.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Was that in 2002, 2003?
A. I don't recall. I don't recall.
Q. If such had been, it would be reflected in
some minutes of the full board of directors?
A. That is possible.
Q. At this executive board meeting, was
anything brought up with regards to Ruth's application
and the fact that she had been accused of using the N
word to describe black contestants in pageants?
MR. BLOCK: Objection the form.
THE WITNESS: At this particular meeting,
October 14, 2006?
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Yes.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Anything brought up before the full
executive board at this particular meeting discussing
Ruth's lack of providing a financial accounting to her
board or to her organization?
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. Was anything brought up at this meeting
with regards to the fact that Ruth Sidbury had already
been awarded a franchise?
A. Awarded a franchise for what pageant?
Q. Let me show you again the minutes of the
October 13th meeting. I am going to just point it out to
you. It says franchises that have been awarded. It says
River City. Isn't River City the pageant that Ruth
Sidbury --
A. That is right. She had been awarded.
Q. So Ruth Sidbury had been awarded the River
City Jacksonville pageant at the meeting on October 13,
2006?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that is the one that she had been
running for quite a number of years up to this point?
A. That is correct.
Q. So you as the executive board, did you all
make any discussions with regards to whether or not Ruth
Sidbury could handle two franchises or whether or not
those franchises needed to be split up?
A. There was conversation to my recollection
or objection about that Ruth could not handle two
franchises and run two pageants.
Q. Was there any discussion with regards to if
Ruth Sidbury already has a pageant and it's the same
pageant she has been running for years, why not award the
pageant to the North Florida Scholarship Organization?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There was actually -- I don't
recall the specifics regarding that discussion. I
know it had been discussed at some point during
the conversation that Ms. Sidbury previously had
run the Miss Jacksonville pageant, and was
interested in running it again.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But there was nothing discussed as to why
the franchise was originally taken away from her?
A. No.
Q. So was it the executive board's decision it
was better for Kevin Sanders not to have a franchise than
it was for Ruth to have two?
A. The decision was made to award the
franchise to the Miss Jacksonville Scholarship Foundation
with Ruth Sidbury as the executive director.
Q. Again, we have acknowledged it's not the
individuals that get awarded. It's the organization.
A. With a specific person designated as the
executive director.
Q. Was there any attempt by the executive
board or the full board or any designee by either
organization to contact the North Florida Scholarship
Organization and say, we want to give the franchise back
to you but we are not happy about Kevin Sanders being
executive director?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was the fact that Kevin Sanders was going
to be executive director the governing decision for the
executive board or was it the fact that the North Florida
Scholarship Organization had applied to renew the
franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The general concerns had to
do, again, with how the cancellation of the Miss
Jacksonville pageant had transpired and unfolded
with Kevin and Cammie Sanders as the executive
directors.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And, again, I think we have talked about
that. Your concern essentially is that it was canceled
without notice to the Miss Florida pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That was one of the
objections, and the method, the way in which it
was canceled and communicated to the general
public.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know how many contestants had signed
up for the Miss Jacksonville pageant at the time it was
canceled?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you think that that would have been good
information to have?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It's possible.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know how many days before the
scheduled pageant that it was canceled?
A. I do not recall.
Q. Do you think that would have been some good
information to have?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I may have known it at the
time, but I don't recall that.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you think the fact that those topics
were discussed with Mary Sullivan should have been
discussed at either the executive board or the full board
meeting regardless if Kevin Sanders was there or not?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: Again, I have stated the
things I remember being discussed. If other
things or issues were discussed, I don't recall
them.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I mean, you don't recall Mary bringing up
the particulars of the discussion with regards to why the
pageant was canceled and the time frame and the amount of
contestants that had signed up?
MR. BLOCK: Form, asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: What I recall was what was
posted on the website.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. The whole decision is made on the posting
on the website?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The general information of
what I recall is that was the general basis of
what was posted. That, I remember specifically.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But nothing with regards to the why and the
wherefore behind the posting?
MR. BLOCK : Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, I have stated what I
recall to the best of my recollection I can
remember.
MR. SANDERS: That would be five.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Why don't you review that and let me know
when you have had an opportunity to review that.
A. Okay.
Q. That is a one page e-mail that says the
subject is Miss Jacksonville and Miss First Coast. It is
dated 9/16/2006 at 5:40 p.m. Eastern Standard Time; is
that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it's from MaryCrwnMry. That is the
e-mail address. Who is MaryCrwnMry?
A. That would be Mary Sullivan.
Q. It says to ramcleod. Who is ramcleod@
mcleodlawfirm?
A. That is Ray McLeod.
Q. Then it says CC to JPH ANGEL. Do you know
who that is?
A. Right off the top of my head, I don't know
who that is.
Q. If I were to suggest to you that that is
Jennifer Herrington --
A. That might be correct.
Q. And then rwalker@miami.edu. Who is that?
A. That is me.
Q. LOYTPA. Who is that?
A. Rob Loy.
Q. And then JKW61.
A. Keith Williams.
Q. And then MAMAKIT777?
A. Kitty Potapow.
Q. Do you recall receiving this e-mail and
reading it?
A. It says I received it. Obviously, I got
it.
Q. You just don't recall?
A. I just don't recall.
Q. But you are not denying that rwalker@
miami.edu is your e-mail address?
A. I am not.
Q. Just looking at the first paragraph, it
talks about they are going to cancel the upcoming pageant
October 21st, 2006?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. It says, "But Jennifer & Jeff Herrington
have stepped in and are going to direct the pageant." Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. By what authority did Mary Sullivan have to
tell Jeff and Jennifer Herrington that they could direct
the pageant without the full board's authority?
A. They would still need to be submitting a
franchise in order to be approved to become official.
Q. But she told them that they could step in;
did she not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form. Again, no
foundation.
THE WITNESS: It indicates to me there was
a conversation had that they were interested in
running the pageant.
As I stated previously, Mary had
conversations with individuals all the time about
running pageants. It was not to be made official,
though, until the franchise was submitted and
approved.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let's look at the next paragraph. The next
paragraph says: "I have assured Jennifer & Jeff that
they will have our support and assistance, especially
during the next few weeks." What is she talking about
support and assistance if they haven't been awarded a
franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You would have to ask Mary.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Would it be typical for Mary Sullivan to
say, yeah, you could run the pageant, and let somebody
put in a lot of time and effort in getting something set
up without full board authority?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, she can have the
conversation with them about running it,
potentially taking it over, but until the board,
the executive board approves the franchise
agreement, it would not be official.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But they could act like the franchise based
on Mary's permission?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form and to
foundation.
THE WITNESS: People can do whatever they
want to do as long as they understand it would not
be official until the executive board approves the
franchise.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me ask you this: Do you recall whether
or not the Miss Florida board or Mary Sullivan or
yourself had told the webmaster to change the Miss
Florida website to indicate that Jeff and Jennifer
Herrington were running the pageant after this e-mail?
A. I don't recall that, but changes for the
website are submitted through Mary, and then to the
webmaster. They don't run through me.
Q. So if the website got changed indicating
that Jeff and Jennifer would be running the Jacksonville
pageant, that would have been Mary telling the website
manager to change that?
A. Typically, it would be either Mary or Rob
to change it.
Q. Does she have authority to tell the
webmaster to change the executive director on the
website?
A. She can tell them to change whatever she
wants on the website. Again, it would not be official,
though, until the franchise was voted on and approved.
Q. If a potential contestant, a young lady saw
the Miss Florida website and the contact information was
Jeff and Jennifer Herrington, what is to happen to that
potential contestant if they are not actually the
franchise holder?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Well, until the franchise is
granted it becomes official, there is no
officially a pageant, so --
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So that potential contestant would just be
out of luck if they contacted Jeff or Jennifer requesting
information and an application to be in the Miss
Jacksonville pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Object to the form.
THE WITNESS: They could contact Jeff and
Jennifer, and how they explained it, they could
say, our intent is that we are going to move
forward with this, we are waiting pending approval
of the Miss Florida organization. Again, I wasn't
privy to how that was communicated to any
contestant.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Is there anything in this e-mail that would
even suggest to you that it is contingent on anything?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There is a sentence, "There
may be some questions concerning the nonprofit
status, the pageant funds." That doesn't refer to
that. It also refers that Jennifer at one point
had been listed as the co-ed.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I am going to get to that point, but the
question right now, is there anything in this e-mail that
was sent out to you and to Jennifer Herrington and to Rob
Loy and to Mr. Williams and to Ms. Potapow that there are
any limitations, restrictions on Jennifer and Jeff
Herrington?
A. Not that I notice.
Q. Let's look at that last paragraph. It
says, "Jennifer was listed as the co-ed and while she
technically resigned to act as Business Manager, that was
never made public past the Executive Board. Therefore,
we are adding her back as Executive Director, again an
Executive Board decision."
A. That would refer to an executive board
decision.
Q. Was that an executive board decision?
A. I think what that e-mail is implying that
it would need the -- she could only be added back when
the required above, which goes back to my comment about
it's not over until a franchise is officially executed
listing Jennifer Herrington as an executive director.
Q. But it doesn't say that. It says,
"Therefore, we are adding her back as Executive Director,
again an Executive Board decision." It's indicating that
they are being added back; does it not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, that is your
interpretation. I don't.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I'll ask it a different way. Was there an
executive board meeting in which this was discussed and
Jennifer's non-public resignation was rescinded and she
was added back as a co-executive director of the Miss
Jacksonville pageant?
A. I don't recall.
Q. So it could have happened. You just don't
remember?
A. I don't recall.
Q. As the chairman of the board --
A. You asked me to answer honestly and
truthfully. That is what I did. I don't recall.
Q. It says, "Call me when you have an
opportunity to speak - Monday will be fine."
Was Mary Sullivan indicating that to all
the people or to Ray McLeod or --
A. Since it was addressed, Dear Ray, I would
assume it was to Ray.
MR. SANDERS: That is Number 6.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 6 was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. One last question on this e-mail. Mary
wouldn't have made all these decisions herself without
board approval, would she?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You know, I didn't recall
this e-mail, so I don't recall the specifics of
what is stated in this e-mail.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But if this e-mail had been identified by
Mary Sullivan as Exhibit 4 in her deposition, and she has
identified that she sent that out, is there any question
that that is what she wrote in the e-mail?
A. Again, if Mary has identified this as what
she wrote on the e-mail, this is what she wrote on the
e-mail. I do not recall the e-mail.
Q. If Mary made these decisions on her own
without board approval, does she have authority to do
that?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, I don't recall the
e-mail, so I don't recall if there were any
decisions made regarding what is stated in that.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I will ask it another way. Well, I'll even
ask a different question.
Are all minutes of the executive board
taken?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Most -- yes, official
minutes, official meetings, executive board
meetings would be taken.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If there was a discussion with regards to
Jeff and Jennifer and there was an executive board
decision to rescind her resignation and to reinstate her
as a co-executive director of the Miss Jacksonville
pageant, that would be reflected in some executive board
meeting?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: It should be.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail, let you
look at it, and when you are finished reading it just
indicate that you are finished.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you seen that e-mail before?
Essentially, those are two e-mails. It's
one e-mail from Kevin Sanders, Monday, September 18th,
2006 to Ray McLeod and Ray McLeod's response thereto.
A. I don't recall seeing that.
Q. So that e-mail has never been brought up
before a full board or an executive board meeting?
A. I don't recall seeing this e-mail.
Q. Had you been able to see that e-mail, would
that have answered some of your concerns or questions
that you would have with regards to why the pageant was
canceled?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I mean, it alludes to some of
the things possibly going on with you and between
you and Cammie.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You mean Kevin Sanders and Cammie Sanders?
A. I mean, between Kevin Sanders and Cammie
Sanders, but, again, it doesn't go into specific detail.
Q. It also indicates that Jennifer Herrington
had come by and picked up essentially all the
organization's paperwork under direction of Mary; does it
not?
A. It does say that.
Q. Did Mary have authority to tell Jennifer
Herrington that she could do that?
A. Again, whatever conversation Mary had with
Jennifer, I'm not exactly sure. I mean, I do recall some
kind of conversation that they, again, back to the
posting of the website, where there was a reference to
Jennifer and Jeff were interested in taking it over. So
I'm assuming this had something to do with that reference
on the website that Jennifer and Jeff Herrington were
looking at taking the pageant over. It appears to be a
conversation.
You are saying now Kevin Sanders to Ray
McLeod referencing Jennifer Herrington picking up the
documents.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 7.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I'll let you read that.
A. Okay.
Q. That is an e-mail from Kevin Sanders to
Mary Sullivan and Ray McLeod of September 18th, 2006, at
5:11 p.m.; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And it essentially just says, "Dear Mary
and Ray, Thank you both for your kindness and
understanding. Kevin Sanders," correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Was this e-mail ever given to the executive
board or the full board or ever discussed with the
executive board or full board?
A. Not to my knowledge.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 8.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you a two page e-mail. The
original e-mail was from MaryCrwnMry to kevsand1@
bellsouth.net, cc to ramcleod@mcleodlawfirm on Monday,
September 18, 2006.
And then a reply from Kevin Sanders on
Tuesday, September 19th.
I'll let you read that and when you have
completed that, please let me know.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail prior to
today?
A. I have seen it prior to today.
Q. When did you see it prior to today?
A. I don't recall specifically.
Q. Let me ask you, had you seen this e-mail
prior to the decision that was made by the executive
board not to renew the franchise with the North Florida
Scholarship Organization?
A. I don't recall that I had seen it prior to
that.
Q. Had that e-mail been reviewed or read to
the full board or to the executive board prior to the
decision being made with regards to the Miss Jacksonville
franchise in October of 2006?
A. Had this been read to the board?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. That would be neither to the full board or
the executive board?
A. To my knowledge. The first part of the
e-mail from Mary to Kevin, December 18, 2006, I do,
paraphrasing what I recall, was a summation that Mary
communicated with regard to the conversation that Ray,
Kevin and Mary had had over the telephone.
Q. Let's look at the first line of that. It
says, "Dear Kevin: I am pleased that we could talk about
the situation and resolve most of the issues."
What does she mean, if you know, to resolve
most of the issues?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: I would assume it has to do
with what was posted on the website and how that
whole thing transpired, why the pageant was being
canceled, why Cammie and Kevin were no longer
interested in running the pageant. How that
whole, again, thing came down and got
communicated.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But, again, based on your previous
testimony that resolution between Mary Sullivan and Kevin
Sanders was never brought up either at a full board
meeting or executive board meeting, was it?
MR. BLOCK: Objection as to form.
THE WITNESS: In terms of it being a
resolution, what was communicated was that there
had been a conversation between Kevin, Mary and
Ray regarding the interest in Kevin serving as the
executive director and there was a summation
basically of that conversation.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And the next sentence says, "We value your
long time participation and want to see it continue."
What do you think she meant by want to see
it continue?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You would have to ask her.
She wrote the e-mail.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Did Mary Sullivan have the authority either
from the general rules, the bylaws or any other rules or
regulations to resolve issues with local franchise
holders and to make sure that their participation
continued?
A. In day-to-day operating she would have
conversations with all franchise holders if issues arose.
Try to work through and solve solutions that had
problems.
Q. So she had that authority?
MR. BLOCK: Objection form.
THE WITNESS: She had the authority to have
conversations about how issues may be resolved.
She did not have authority to grant a franchise to
anyone.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let's go to the next one, "I would like to
confirm some of the things we discussed today." Number
one, it says, "You will be listed as the Executive
Director of the Miss Jacksonville Pageant and will
execute a franchise agreement for that pageant on or
before October 14, 2006."
A. Correct. That is what it says.
Q. Was Kevin Sanders listed as executive
director for the Miss Jacksonville pageant after this
e-mail?
A. I don't recall.
Q. If I was to suggest to you that the website
was changed from Jennifer and Jeff Herrington running the
Miss Jacksonville franchise to Kevin Sanders running the
Jacksonville franchise and Jennifer Herrington running
the Miss First Coast franchise on the Miss Florida's
website, would that refresh your recollection?
MR. BLOCK: Objection, form.
THE WITNESS: Again, without seeing the
website, I don't want to comment. It could have
been. It's a possibility.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You have indicated that if the website gets
changed, that goes through Mary Sullivan?
A. Yes, and sometimes Rob took care of that.
Q. Do you know as an executive board member
whether or not Kevin Sanders actually submitted a
franchise agreement on or about October 14, 2006?
A. To my knowledge, yes.
Q. Paragraph two says, "The pageant previously
scheduled for October 21, 2006 is not going to take
place. You will reschedule the preliminary for a later
date i.e. January, February or March 2007."
A. That is correct. That is what it states.
Q. And she wouldn't state that unless it had
been discussed and agreed to, would she?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, I was not privy to the
conversation had between Mary, Kevin and Ray, so I
am assuming this is an accurate reflection of that
conversation that was had.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So the issue of the pageant being canceled
either on the website or otherwise was pretty much
resolved by that one statement; was it not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It indicates that the pageant
was going to be rescheduled is what it says.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Number three says, "Will you be revising
your website? When I last checked, your message was
still posted."
Do you know if the Miss Jacksonville First
Coast website changed the website and removed the
posting?
A. In the response that Kevin Sanders made to
this e-mail September 19, 2006, it indicates that, "The
website is back up. I will have to revise some of the
graphics, which at my skill level may take some time, but
I anticipate I can accomplish this within two or
three weeks." So it doesn't specifically say the posting
was taken down. It does say the website was back up.
Q. So you don't know if it was up or down?
A. I can't tell from this response.
Q. But, again, the response from Kevin Sanders
to Mary, essentially, is, "Thank you for working with me.
Yes, the corporation issue is being resolved. I will be
filing the appropriate paperwork with Tallahassee."
A. That is what it says, correct.
Q. So the response here from Kevin Sanders is
directly related to the terms and conditions cited by
Mary Sullivan in her e-mail to Kevin Sanders; does it
not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That is what it appears to
be.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 9.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 9, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I am going to again point your attention to
the Miss Florida executive board of directors meeting
October 14, 2006, which is Exhibit 5 today. That
indicates that ex officio member Ray McLeod was present
at that meeting?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Let me show you -- let me ask you one more
question.
You are fairly firm in your recollection
that the majority of the reasons why the franchise was
not renewed in the North Florida Scholarship Organization
was because of the posting on the website and the way the
pageant was terminated?
MR. BLOCK: Form, asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail. Actually,
it's two e-mails, one from the Miss Jacksonville pageant
to Ray McLeod and the response from Ray McLeod back to
the Miss Jacksonville pageant.
A. Uh-huh. Okay.
Q. What does Mr. McLeod indicate was the
reason explained to him that the franchise wasn't renewed
in the name of the North Florida Scholarship
Organization?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It states, "Last night I
spoke briefly with Mary and she said the board was
of the belief that your 'plan' for the pageant was
too unclear such that Ruth's request was approved.
Mary also said the board would likely approve a
future request using a different name if you
evidenced a committee and plans in place. Ray."
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Was there ever a discussion with regards to
any plans of how the respective franchisees, either
Jacksonville Scholarship Organization or North Florida
Scholarship Organization were going to put on the
pageant?
A. I think -- what my recollection was with
reference to plans was the unclear nature of the fact
that it had already been canceled once. Was there truly
a commitment to hold this Miss Jacksonville pageant at a
later date? There was some sentiment among the members
that that could be a risk. It may or may not occur. The
board did not want to be without a Miss Jacksonville
title holder. So because of that uncertainty, I think
probably some board members felt it was in the best
interest to approve the franchise to the Miss
Jacksonville organization.
Q. That would be the Miss Jacksonville
Scholarship Foundation?
A. Correct, yes.
Q. He doesn't indicate any other reasoning
besides that, does he?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form. The
document speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS: I have nothing more to add,
what the document said and what I just answered.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So what plan did Ruth have that was better
than the plan of the North Florida Scholarship
Organization? And I have a follow-up question on that.
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, with the Miss Florida
Scholarship Organization, the plan and issue was
the fact that the pageant had been canceled once.
It was indicated that, you know, based on the
previous exhibit you just shared with me, there
was a conversation had that it would be
rescheduled.
There were some who felt that it may or may
not be rescheduled, and for those particular
reasons because of the posting, the way it was
handled, the fact it was canceled, the fact that
there may or may not be a Miss Jacksonville
pageant, the fact that there was an indication and
an attempt to reschedule, which may or may occur,
there were some board members who felt it was
better to award the franchise to Ruth, which is
what this e-mail indicates to me.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me go to the second sentence. It says,
"Mary also said the board would likely approve a future
request using a different name if you evidenced a
committee and plans in place."
What requirements other than the franchise
agreement are required in order to submit an application
for a franchise?
A. Again, I think I previously answered that
in terms of it has to be a corporation, you have to feel
there is a structure in place that is going to allow the
franchise to be successful. I think there was some
concern in this particular case in terms of without
Cammie was that going to be possible for all that to
happen. I'm not sure who the other committee members
were that were going to be part of helping pull this
pageant off. So, again, the same things you would think
about in awarding a new franchise are the things, some of
the things, concerns that I think were expressed to you.
Q. This wasn't a new franchise. You already
testified that you knew Kevin Sanders knew how to put a
pageant and had put on pageants before, and he had even
been recognized as an outstanding executive director,
correct?
A. That is correct, and also in conjunction
with Cammie Sanders, and, I guess, there was just some
concern about given the circumstance, again, back to my
same answer, how this had been handled, how this had been
presented, how publicly it had happened. Tentative
conversations had been had in terms of rescheduling,
possibly rescheduling, all those kinds of things. Those
were all the same factors that weighed into the decision.
Q. But all that is not reflected in any of the
minutes, is it?
A. It is part of the discussion.
Q. But it's not in the minutes?
A. All discussion items -- the way some people
take minutes, every single discussion point is not
necessarily listed in the minutes.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 10.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 10, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail. It says,
subject, Miss Jacksonville/First Coast, 9/16/2006, from
LOYTPA, I think we established that is Rob Loy, to
TFickey600. Who is that?
A. That is Tim Fickey. He's the webmaster.
Q. Then it's also cc to MaryCrwnMry. It's not
cc to any other members of the board. I show you that
and when you have finished reading it, let me know.
A. Okay.
Q. That is a note to Mr. Fickey, the
webmaster, to basically change the website to reflect
that Miss Jacksonville is going to be under the executive
director of -- let's see. That is a communication to
remove Kevin and Cammie Sanders as executive directors
from the Miss Jacksonville pageant and put Jennifer
Herrington's name in place; is that correct?
A. That is what it states.
Q. Again, Mary Sullivan had the authority to
tell Rob Loy to tell Tim Fickey to do that?
A. She obviously did or there is some
communication back and forth between Mary and Rob
regarding this matter, yes.
Q. This with the other e-mails that you have
already read with regards to Jennifer and Jeff taking
over the Miss Jacksonville franchise; does it not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It aligns with those e-mails,
yes.
MR. SANDERS: This will be Number 11.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I'll go ahead and get you started reading
this. This is a two page e-mail, subject, Miss
Jacksonville, dated 9/17/2006 from MaryCrwnMry to
JPH ANGEL, which is Jennifer Herrington. Let me know
when you are finished reading that.
MR. BLOCK: Just a note that it's half past
or actually 4:35. At 5:00 o'clock, I made it in
three minutes last time, I have to feed the meter
again.
THE WITNESS: I have to feed the meter
sometime shortly after 5:00.
Okay.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Have you seen that e-mail before?
A. I cannot recall.
Q. This e-mail was acknowledged by Mary
Sullivan in her deposition as Sullivan's Exhibit Number
5.
I just want to hit a few things on this
e-mail. In the first paragraph, it essentially is the
last sentence. It says, "Kevin's posting on the website
of course, tells another story and sends mixed messages
to everyone." What mixed messages is she talking about;
if you know?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, you would have to ask
her.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. She didn't mention anything at any of the
meetings about sending mixed messages and her feelings on
that?
A. I don't recall the word mixed messages
being used. I think in general what was mentioned in the
meetings was the general message of what was posted on
the website that I stated several times. It has to do
with the pageant being canceled and Cammie not wanting
anything to do with this, and, therefore, we were getting
out of this.
Q. The second paragraph says, "This is my
recommendation. I would meet with them and pick up the
records. I would then consider only holding the Miss
Jacksonville title and Miss Jacksonville's Outstanding
Teen title as opposed to do 4 (four) titles." Again,
what authority does Mary have to make those
recommendations to Jennifer Herrington?
A. Again, you would have to ask Mary because
she put this in writing. I'm assuming it was in response
to the fact that this posting was listed and there was
trying to be some resolution to how to get out of the
situation, but you would need to consult her. She wrote
this.
Q. Again, we have taken her deposition. I'm
just trying to figure out what she may or may not -- if
she discussed with you or with the executive board
Jennifer Herrington stepping in and just taking over the
Miss Jacksonville title and the Jacksonville Outstanding
Teen title or was she just doing this on her own?
A. I think there had been some discussion with
Jennifer. Again, back to the posting. It referenced the
posting by Kevin and Cammie that Jennifer and Jeff were
interested in taking it over, which implies some kind of
conversation between Kevin and Cammie and Jeff and
Jennifer.
So I am assuming that partially, this
discussion partially occurred as a result of what was
posted on that website.
Again, it terms of this, that may be what
appeared to be a resolution based on what was posted on
the website and conversations Mary was having with
Jennifer.
Q. Was this e-mail ever brought up before the
executive board or the full board for discussion?
A. I don't remember this e-mail being brought
up for discussion.
MR. SANDERS: Number 12.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 12, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail. This is
Miss Jacksonville is the subject, dated 9/17/2006, from
JPH ANGEL to MaryCrwnMry. This, again, was introduced in
the Sullivan deposition as Exhibit Number 9.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. I don't recall seen this e-mail.
Q. Was this e-mail ever brought up before the
full board or before the executive board for discussion
with regards to the renewal of the franchise?
A. I don't recall. To the best of my
knowledge, I don't think so.
Q. There's a lot of interesting things in this
e-mail, but I want to go and just ask you on -- let's
see. It's not really blocked. I believe it would be the
third paragraph, where it is says, "Cammie is fully
aware." Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It says, "I have also called a meeting for
tomorrow evening at my house with people who are willing
to help Jeff and I proceed with the pageant. I have
called all of our titleholders and as you can imagine
they are all very confused and shocked but have assured
me that they will rally around Jeff and I and jump in and
do whatever it takes to keep the pageant going."
I get the impression in that e-mail that
Jennifer Herrington is acting like an executive director.
Does she have the authority to act like an executive
director based on just Mary Sullivan sending her e-mails?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, back to what I have
stated earlier, in the other e-mails that you gave
me, I think this was an attempt based on the fact
that Kevin and Cammie Sanders had posted on the
website that Jennifer and Jeff Herrington were
interested in taking this pageant over. That
appeared to de done so in accordance with Kevin
and Cammie. So I think there was an assumption
that this could be worked out potentially with
Jennifer Herrington serving as executive director.
This particular e-mail you showed me also
references the fact that there is some
conversation about the North Florida Scholarship
Organization and Kevin stating that there is
potential conversation about Kevin remaining as
the president of the scholarship organization in
lieu of the fact that Jeff and Jennifer might be
operating the pageant.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Was this e-mail ever brought before the
full board or the executive board?
A. Again, I don't remember. Not to my
recollection.
MR. SANDERS: Number 13.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 13, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I'll show you a two page -- it's two pages,
although at the top it says one of three, but it's only a
two page exhibit. It says, "Your e mail," 9/17/2006,
from MaryCrwnMry to JPH ANGEL. I believe if you want to
compare, I believe it is an answer to the e-mail that you
just looked at.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. Again, to the best of my recollection, I
don't recall seeing this.
Q. Was this response to Ms. Herrington's
e-mail ever published, read or distributed to the
executive board or the full board prior to making any
decisions on the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not to my recollection.
MR. SANDERS: That will be 14.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 14, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail. It says,
subject, "Pageant & Business Manager," dated
September 19, 2006, from JPH ANGEL to MaryCrwnMry,
LOYTPA, MAMAKIT777, JKW61, rwalker@Miami.edu, and
ramcleod@mcleodlawfirm.com.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before
today?
A. Obviously, I did at some point because it
came to me.
Q. Your e-mail address is listed on there?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. But you don't recall seeing that e-mail?
A. Again, if I got it, I'm sure I read it
probably September 19, 2006.
Q. Was this e-mail ever brought up before the
executive board or the full board with regards to making
decisions on the Miss Jacksonville franchise?
A. Not this specific e-mail, but I recall, I
do recall there was a conversation, I think. Again, my
memory is -- I don't recall this specific e-mail being
brought up. I think it was mentioned that Jennifer was
officially resigning as the business manager. I think
there was some mention probably at some point -- I'm sure
there was some mention that Jeff and Jennifer were not
going to be pursuing the pageant.
Q. A couple of questions on that. If you
can -- again, I am just going to go with separations as
paragraphs. If you look at one, two, three, the fourth
paragraph, it says, "I have also noticed."
A. Yes.
Q. She says, "I have also noticed that my name
and address are listed under the Miss First Coast pageant
on the Miss Florida web site and Kevin's with my address
is listed under Miss Jacksonville. You may want Rob or
the webmaster to correct that when they get a chance."
Do you know if Kevin Sanders' name was
listed on the Miss Florida website with regards to
running the Miss Jacksonville franchise?
A. I do not.
Q. If you go from that paragraph down to the
one -- to the second one, it says, "You, Mary."
A. Uh-huh.
Q. "You, Mary," this is what it says, "You,
Mary - personally along with Rob, Keith, Richard and
Kitty took a chance on me as Business Manager when my
titleholder was crowned under false pre-tenses."
What do you, as Richard Walker, know about
Jennifer Herrington having a titleholder crowned under
false pretenses?
A. I'm going to take a stab. I am assuming
she is referencing the crowning of Candace Cragg.
Q. Why is she considering that a crowning
under false pretenses?
A. There were some issues regarding Candace
Cragg and her documentation, regarding her transcripts
and schools she attended. I am assuming that is what
that is referencing.
Q. Was there an opinion either by
Ms. Herrington, and I am just going to use the names
Mary, Rob, Keith, Richard or Kitty, that anyone at the
North Florida Scholarship Organization had anything to do
with falsifying documents?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't think anyone has ever
thought that anyone from the Miss Florida
Scholarship Pageant falsified documents.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So when she says that, and, again, I think
she is implying that Mary, Rob, Keith, Richard and Kitty
knew that a titleholder was crowned under false
pretenses. Was there ever any accusations by you or the
other individuals that the North Florida Scholarship
Organization or anyone had done anything wrong in the
crowning of Candace?
A. No. The wrongdoing was done by Candace.
I don't know why she is referencing that.
You would have to ask Jennifer.
MR. SANDERS: That will be 15.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 15, was
marked for Identification.)
MR. BLOCK: Why don't we break here.
MR. SANDERS: Yes, that will be good.
(Recess taken.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Have you he ever seen the e-mail, and I
will just identify it since we were off the record. The
subject says "Your recent e mail." It's dated 9/20/2006,
from MaryCrwnMry to JPH ANGEL, which I'm going to suggest
to you is her response to the letter you previously
looked at, which was Exhibit 15 in this deposition.
A. I don't recall seeing this previously.
Q. Was that e-mail ever brought up before the
full board or the executive board before making any
decisions on who was to receive the Miss Jacksonville
franchise?
A. To the best of my recollection, no, this
e-mail was not brought up.
Q. Let's look at just a couple of sections.
In the first paragraph, I believe it's the third
sentence, it says, "We discussed."
A. Yes, uh-huh.
Q. It says, "We discussed that Ray & I had
spoken with Kevin and he stated he would continue to do
the Miss Jacksonville Pageant, but not Miss First Coast.
If for some reason Kevin decided differently, or by
October 14th, he did not submit a franchise agreement, it
was agreed that the Miss Jacksonville title would be
available." Is that the reply of Mary Sullivan to
Jennifer Herrington?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation.
THE WITNESS: That is what the e-mail
states.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Again, this has been identified by Mary
Sullivan in her deposition, and it's introduced as an
exhibit in her deposition as Number 7. This would be
consistent with the other e-mails that Mary Sullivan sent
so Kevin Sanders with regards to his continuation of the
Miss Jacksonville pageant; would it not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It seems to follow a
continuation, yes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. It seems to acknowledge that Kevin Sanders
would be running the Jacksonville pageant, but not the
First Coast pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Again, that is what the
e-mail states.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. It seems to only have the conditions on it
that if Kevin decided differently or did not file the
franchise agreement by October 14th; is that correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: That is what the e-mail
states.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. We have already established that a
franchise was submitted by the North Florida Scholarship
Organization by Kevin Sanders prior to October 14th?
A. That is correct.
Q. Let me count down again. If I count
spaces, it would be the fourth paragraph. It says, "I
called Keith."
A. Okay.
Q. It states, "I called Keith this morning to
see if he could shed some light on your decision. Ray
also called me to say that he had spoken with you
yesterday regarding the incorporation documents and as
far as he knew, you were planning to direct a local
pageant."
Jennifer Herrington had not been approved
by an executive board or a full board decision to run
Miss First Coast at this point in time, had she, on
September 20, 2006?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. But we have already looked at e-mails
between Jennifer Herrington and Mary Sullivan which had
indicated that she would direct that pageant; have we
not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes, there were e-mails that
suggested that.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Mary seems to be acknowledging that Ray,
and I'm going to -- can we say that is Ray McLeod?
A. I would assume it's Ray McLeod.
Q. That Ray was assisting Jennifer in
incorporating, which is one of the prerequisites that I
think you stated to have a franchise in Florida; is that
correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So based on Mary's e-mails and
conversations with Jennifer Herrington, she was
proceeding with an incorporation that set up for a local
and was getting the assistance of Ray McLeod?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, foundation.
THE WITNESS: That is what this implies.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 16.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 16, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail that is
originally from JPHANGEL to kevsand1@bellsouth.net on
Tuesday, October 17, 2006, and a reply from Kevin Sanders
and ask you to look at that and tell me if you have seen
that before?
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. No, I have not.
Q. When Jennifer Herrington indicates in her
message to Kevin Sanders, "Maybe you should have met with
me when I offered? I could have helped shed a little
light on the whole pageant thing. Maybe you would have
realized 'WHO' was telling the truth."
Do you know of some secret plot, plan,
conspiracy or something with regards to the taking of the
Jacksonville franchise away from the North Florida
Scholarship Organization?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what she is
referring to.
MR. SANDERS: Number 17.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 17, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail originally
from JPHANGEL to kevsand1@bellsouth.net on Tuesday,
October 17, 2006 at 3:16 p.m.
A. Okay.
Q. Ms. Herrington indicates, "It's not just a
matter of telling you things.....you need to see proof of
what I had been telling you from the beginning. It would
take me all day to write down everything I know......and
frankly I do not have the time. I am going out of town
early in the morning and will not be returning until
Sunday night. I wish you had been this interested
before......now it is too late. We both lost something
very special to us, and it could have been prevented."
Do you know how the loss of the Miss
Jacksonville pageant could have been prevented by a
conversation with Jennifer Herrington?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to foundation, form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what she is
talking about in this e-mail.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. You know anything about the proof that she
is talking about?
A. Again, I have no idea of anything she is
talking about or referring to in this e-mail.
Q. And, again, have you had any discussions
with Jennifer Herrington prior to these e-mails being
sent out?
A. I have had no discussions with Jennifer
Herrington about this matter, no.
Q. Did Jennifer Herrington have any
discussions with any board members to your knowledge?
A. You have to ask them individually.
Q. And I think you had mentioned earlier in
your deposition that there were some matters brought up
about, I guess, Jennifer Herrington and some discussions
either with her or about her.
Was there anything that would have provided
her with some kind of insight that she could make a
statement that she has all this evidence?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what is being
referred to in this e-mail.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And you have never seen that e-mail before?
A. No, I have not.
MR. SANDERS: Number 18.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 18, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. I will show you another e-mail. That
e-mail originally from JPHANGEL to kevsan1@bellsouth.net
on October 17th at 5:14 p.m.
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. I have not.
Q. Again, if you look at Jennifer Herrington's
e-mail where it says, "I am confused," you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It says, "I am confused," and then dot,
dot, dot. It says, "Kevin I am not kidding, there is way
too much for me to put in an email, besides how informal
is that."
Again, she is referencing some kind of
knowledge that she has with regards to the way the
franchise was awarded. You don't have any clue what she
is talking about there?
A. I do not.
Q. And you don't know of anybody on the board
or the board of directors that may have been discussing
this with her?
A. You would have to ask them individually.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 19.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 19, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail from
JPHANGEL to kevsand1 on Tuesday, October 17th at
7:13 p.m.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. I have not.
Q. Let me just ask you a few questions about
in the very first paragraph there, I believe it's the
second sentence. It says, "I have to tell you I am not
at all surprised, and I am not usually the type of person
to say this to someone but 'I told you so.'"
And then she goes on and says, "I told you
that afternoon in your office but you chose to turn the
other cheek and contact Mary and Ray and pursue this
totally on your own."
What is it that Jennifer Herrington knew
prior to the franchise meeting if everything that you
said and testified to today and the minutes of the
franchise meeting indicated there was no decision until
October 14th?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea. You would
have to ask Jennifer Herrington. I don't know
what she is referring to.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. So Jennifer Herrington's implications in
all these e-mails that she knew something was preordained
or predecided has no basis as far as you know?
MR. BLOCK: Form, characterization.
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, I have no
idea what she is talking about or who she is
referring she talked to or where she thinks she
got information. I have no idea.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Look down, I guess -- again, I'm going to
go by spaces. It would be the sixth paragraph. It
starts with, "I am sure."
A. Yes.
Q. She says, "I am sure you heard that I
resigned from Business Manager......do you want to know
the real reason why? or maybe you could care less! but
for the record.....and only Jeff and Emily and now you
know the only reason. I could not personally be a part
of a board that told me one thing and then told you
something completely different."
What, if anything, did the board tell
Jennifer Herrington about either running a franchise,
having a franchise, the Miss Jacksonville pageant, the
Miss First Coast pageant? What is she talking about
there?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what she is
talking about.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Did Jennifer Herrington at any point in
time ever have any discussions either with particular
board members or the board of the corporation, the full
board or the executive board?
MR. BLOCK: Form and foundation.
THE WITNESS: You would have to ask her and
other members of the board if she had individual
conversations with board members. I'm not aware
of those conversations.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. As the chairman of the board and the CEO,
you never conducted any board meetings where Jennifer
Herrington either appeared or there was any discussions
with regards to Jennifer Herrington and the Miss
Jacksonville franchise or otherwise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There were board meetings
where she appeared because she was the business
manager at one point in time.
Are you referring to board meetings where
specifically this issue was discussed?
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Correct.
A. No.
Q. Then if you will look at the very next
paragraph, it says, "Let me know anytime you want some
good reading......I have some emails I think you might
like to see....once again, these are the same ones
offered to you before and you did not want to meet with
me."
Did you know what e-mails she is referring
to?
A. I do not.
Q. Are there e-mails that you have received as
the CEO or chairman of the board or just as a member of
the board either from Jennifer Herrington or otherwise
from any individual with regards to the Miss Jacksonville
franchise, Kevin Sanders, Cammie Sanders, and the
decision to be made on who is to get the Miss
Jacksonville franchise?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form. Other than
anything that has been introduced so far.
THE WITNESS: Other than anything that has
been introduced so far, not to my knowledge.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 20.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 20, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you another e-mail from
JPHANGEL to kevsand1 on Tuesday, October 17, 2006, at
9:18 p.m.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you ever seen that e-mail before?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Look at the third sentence, which actually
would be just one line down. It says, "The one thing."
A. Okay.
Q. She says, "The one thing that I think you
need to know is that everything that took place in your
office on that Monday was what I was instructed to do."
Do you know if anyone instructed Jennifer
Herrington to go and pick up paperwork and documents from
the North Florida Scholarship Organization to take over
the Miss Jacksonville pageant?
A. Again, what was introduced earlier, there
was an e-mail that indicated that there was some
reference to go pick up the documents.
Q. And that would have been from Mary
Sullivan?
A. From Mary Sullivan.
Q. To Jennifer Herrington?
A. That is all I'm aware of.
Q. So that statement would corroborate what
the previous e-mail was saying?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It could.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Look at not the next sentence, but the
sentence after that. It says, "As you know."
A. Okay.
Q. "As you know I resigned from Business
Manager for a reason.....and that was I felt like I had
been let down. I had people telling me one thing and
then you and (your letter to me) telling me another. It
was a place I did not feel comfortable in. I now find my
life 'empty'. I am not part of any pageant and have no
Miss Florida to take care of."
What, if anything, to your knowledge, was
Jennifer Herrington being told that was different than
what was being told to Kevin Sanders or any
representatives of the North Florida Scholarship
Organization?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what she is
referring to.
MR. SANDERS: That will be Number 21.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 21, was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Any of these e-mails from Jennifer
Herrington to Kevin Sanders that you just reviewed, were
any of those brought up, discussed, reproduced or read to
either the executive board or to the full board of
directors for Miss Florida?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. And as far as your knowledge is concerned,
you have no understanding of what, if anything, Jennifer
Herrington is talking about as far as evidence, documents
and e-mails, and being told one thing and being told
another?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what she is
referring to.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Let me show you an eight page document
which was identified by Mary Sullivan and is Exhibit
Number 20 in her deposition. I will ask you if you have
seen that before and please feel free to read the whole
thing if necessary.
A. Okay.
Q. Have you seen that document before?
A. It's the franchise submitted for 2006-2007
by the Miss Jacksonville Scholarship Foundation.
Q. That would be Ruth Sidbury and, I guess, it
is Karen Miller as executive director?
A. Correct.
Q. When was this franchise submitted?
A. It doesn't have a submission date on here.
Q. I can suggest to you if you look at page
seven, I am just going to --
A. There is a signature.
Q. I am going to assume there is a date on
that page with the signature of Ruth Sidbury.
A. Ruth Sidbury signed the franchise agreement
on September 25th, 2006.
Q. Do you know if this came in before or after
the franchise agreement was submitted by the North
Florida Scholarship Organization under Kevin Sanders?
A. Don't know.
Q. What, if any, consideration does the
original franchise holder get in the renewal of the
franchise?
A. Franchise agreements are awarded for one
year at a time.
Q. I think we have already established
earlier. I don't want to go through there and get it
out. Several individuals you already indicated had
franchises for at least the seven years that you have
been on the board, so --
A. Correct.
Q. What, if any, consideration does a current
franchise holder get when they resubmit a franchise
agreement?
MR. BLOCK: Form.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Or is it just rubber stamped?
MR. BLOCK: Form and foundation.
THE WITNESS: It's not rubber stamped. We
review the franchise upon request and we look at
their success, their track record, their results
in the past year, if there are any issues or
concerns that come up over the year regarding
either the corporation or the executive director.
All those things that we discussed are taken into
consideration.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. And would there be any consideration at all
with regards to one person submitting a franchise
agreement prior to the other?
A. If we had two agreements in front of us
that we had not acted, we would review both agreements.
Q. Again, you did review this agreement
because I'm looking, again, at page seven and it says
Miss Jacksonville and Miss River City Jacksonville, and
as we noted earlier in you testimony, and from the
minutes of the board, the River City franchise had
already been approved prior to the Miss Jacksonville
franchise being awarded?
A. That is what the minutes state.
Q. Is there any reason to not believe what the
minutes state?
A. I just don't know if there was a separate
one submitted with this additional one adding the second
title. I don't know the time sequence here of the
receipt between that River City and this one.
Q. Where do these franchise agreements come
from? Who generates them?
A. Franchise agreement is generated through --
it's written and drafted and confirmed by our attorney
and then generated out to the local pageants by Mary
Sullivan.
Q. So these would be agreements that are
drafted by Ray McLeod or are these agreements that come
from the Miss America organization itself?
A. The franchise agreement for the Miss
Florida pageant is specific to the Miss Florida pageant
making sure there are specific rules and regulations that
refer to Miss America if there is any Miss America rules
that apply as well. Then the state can adjust their
franchise as long as they don't violate any of the Miss
America standards direct to us. This document can also
be found in our website.
Q. I suppose everything that is in this
agreement has a purpose or a need; does it not?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, no
foundation.
THE WITNESS: Otherwise, it wouldn't be
there.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. If you turn to page eight, right up at the
top there, there seems to be a necessity that this
agreement be sworn to and subscribed and acknowledged in
front of a notary.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And that be acknowledged by the notary.
A. Correct.
Q. That is not filled in there.
A. There is a notary stamp on the previous
page, on page seven.
Q. Does that say anywhere around the notary or
the signature that it was sworn to and subscribed by the
applicant, Ruth Sidbury?
A. My understanding of the reason why the
notary puts their stamp and approves it is if they are
witnessing that person sign this document.
Q. And I would agree with you to a certain
extent. They, by their notarization witness that the
person that signed it is the person that signed it.
A. Correct.
Q. But that doesn't mean that the person
signing it has taken an oath or has sworn and attested to
the truth of the those documents unless that is
indicated, correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form, calls for a
legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: All I can tell you, there is
a notary stamp right by Ruth's signature on page
seven.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. But there is not a notary signature on page
eight, which would indicate that anyone took an oath,
swore to, subscribed or acknowledged anything in this
franchise agreement; is that correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection as to form.
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Again, everything in this franchise
agreement is there for a reason and a purpose; is that
correct?
MR. BLOCK: Again, same objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Do you know if the franchise agreement
submitted by the North Florida Scholarship Organization
was properly notarized, sworn to, subscribed and
affirmed?
A. I would have to see a copy of it.
Q. Do you know if that was even a
consideration with regards to whether or not you validly
had two franchise agreements for consideration in front
of you?
MR. BLOCK: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I would personally consider
this to be a valid franchise agreement.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Was this ever mentioned or brought up
before the executive board or the full board with regards
to the lack of a notary signature in the proper spot?
A. No, because as I stated, I would consider
this to be proper.
Q. Who made the decision, then, to consider
this a validly executed franchise agreement; you or Mary
or was this just overlooked?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The executive board voted and
accepted this as a valid agreement.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Now, then, I think we have established by
your previous testimony and the minutes that the
executive board granted Ruth the franchise. In fact, was
publicly awarded the franchise at the franchise meeting
on October 14, 2006; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What is the date of the signature by Mary
Sullivan with regards to acceptance of the franchise
agreement?
A. It appear to say October 30th.
Q. That is 16 days after the alleged awarding
of the franchise to Ruth Sidbury and the Jacksonville
Scholarship Foundation; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. In particular, and, again, this instrument
you acknowledge was drafted by the Miss Florida
organization or on behalf of Miss Florida organization.
It's signed by Mary E. Sullivan, it's president.
A. Correct.
Q. It's not signed or acknowledged by the
board of directors, is it?
A. It's signed by Mary with the authority from
the board. They are being approved by the board.
Q. It doesn't say that, does it?
A. No.
Q. And when she is dealing with people as the
president, you have already acknowledged she has certain
authority to deal with them and to negotiate with them;
is that correct?
MR. BLOCK: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: She has authority to have
conversations with people, talk to people about
it, but, again, final approval of a franchise is
done by the executive board, which is what this
segment is that is accepted by the board of
directors of the Miss Florida pageant.
She would not sign this until it was voted
on by the executive board.
MR. SANDERS: That will be number 22.
(Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 22 was
marked for Identification.)
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. At some point at the franchise meeting on
October 14th, did you and the executive board meet with
Kevin Sanders?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What, if any, discussions were had from
that meeting?
A. The meeting with Kevin?
Q. Yes.
A. The executive board, which were present at
the time, Mary Sullivan, Rob Loy, myself and Kitty
Potapow met with Kevin during a break of the franchise
meeting. We met with Kevin to inform him that the
decision had been made to award the franchise for Miss
Jacksonville to Ruth Sidbury.
There was a discussion that ensued. Kevin
had some questions why that decision would be made. We
talked about things I have already stated, which dealt
with the posting to the website, the concern that would
indeed this pageant happen if it had been awarded, et
cetera.
Q. That meeting never occurred prior to the
executive board making that decision?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Do you recall any statements made to Kevin
Sanders with regards to his ability or the desire to
apply for a franchise in future years?
A. I think there was a statement, an
indication made that we would entertain consideration of
a franchise in the future once things in Kevin's personal
life or whatever had been going on that caused the issue
with the cancelation of the pageant, and however that
involved Cammie, and all those things that had been
happening, that with some time to be off, we even
indicated that we would be willing to entertain a
franchise for the future.
Q. So the executive board would consider
awarding a franchise to Kevin Sanders in the future, but
just not at that point in time?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that was based on a perceived -- I'm
just going to use your quoted words, "Some kind of
personal problems." What personal problems are you
referring to?
A. Well, what was posted on the website. The
way it was handled, the fact that the pageant was
canceled. There was reference to Cammie not wanting to
be involved anymore. Therefore, it was stated Kevin
didn't want to do this by himself, et cetera. That was
all part of the discussion.
Q. Has Kevin Sanders made application for a
Miss Florida franchise since 2006?
A. Yes, he has.
Q. How many times has Kevin Sanders made
application for a franchise with the Miss Florida
organization since 2006?
A. I think it would be twice.
Q. Would that be 2007 and 2008?
A. 2007-2008, 2008-2009.
Q. Was Kevin Sanders awarded a franchise to
the North Florida Scholarship Organization based on those
applications?
A. He was not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because there is a lawsuit pending, the
North Florida Scholarship Organization against the Miss
Florida organization.
Q. Why does that make a difference?
A. Because we did not feel it is in the Miss
Florida organization's best interest to award to a
franchise while there is a pending lawsuit against the
organization.
Q. Has that ever been stated in any rejection
of the franchise?
MR. BLOCK: I am going to object as to
relevance to this case.
MR. SANDERS: I think he has already made
it relevant based on what the executive board
said, but you can have your relevancy objection.
That is fine.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Has that ever been stated in a letter --
MR. BLOCK: I will direct him not to
answer. You can go to the judge on it. This is
not this case, and we are not going to let you set
up a second case, Kevin. Not in this deposition.
You can go to the judge.
MR. SANDERS: Okay. Certify that question.
That is fine.
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. Were those decisions made by the executive
board that you refer to by the full board or by you and
Mary?
MR. BLOCK: Objection. What are those
decisions?
BY MR. SANDERS:
Q. With regards to the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009
pageant?
MR. BLOCK: Direction not to answer.
MR. SANDERS: Certify that question.
MR. BLOCK: If you want to explain the
relevance to a breach of contract suit to the '06,
whatever year it was, '06 franchise, please do so
on the record, so we can have that education.
MR. SANDERS: I prefer to argue in front of
the judge. I know you well.
You instructed him not to answer, which is
a clear violation of the rules of civil procedure.
There is no privilege. I think you need to check
your case law. There is no privilege here. There
is no work product. There is nothing.
You cannot instruct this man not to answer
this question. I will be seeking sanctions to
include my air flight down here and my air flight
to come back down here to complete the deposition
unless you decide to change your mind. Otherwise,
I will take it to the judge.
MR. BLOCK: Kevin, if you can explain the
relevance to this case, discovery may be broad,
but it is not unlimited, and I believe you have
every intention of suing my client again. This is
a breach of contract for one year. That is all
this case is, and if you can explain it to me,
that would be fine, but you are --
MR. SANDERS: I don't have to explain it to
you. This is discovery. Anything is fair game in
discovery unless it's privileged or a
communication between attorney and client. There
is no case law that will support your position,
but I'll be glad to take it up.
MR. BLOCK: Now I see where our differences
are. I do believe there is a limit that the
Florida rules of civil procedure say. It has to
be relevant or lead to relevant evidence or
arguably lead to relevant evidence, and that is
what I'm pleading with you.
Tell me how this arguably leads to relevant
evidence? I don't see it. If you can explain it
to me, I could change my opinion, but I don't see
it.
MR. SANDERS: He has already said that the
executive board said they would receive an
application for a franchise from the North Florida
Scholarship Organization and Kevin Sanders. That
is what makes it relevant, and they have reviewed
those even though they have acknowledged that they
would receive those. That makes it relevant.
MR. BLOCK: Okay. I don't agree with your
argument, but you have explained your position. I
have asked that. I am willing to go to the judge.
MR. SANDERS: Okay. That is fine.